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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 1  

I should probably note that I was reading NEW TEEN TITANS before
being introduced to Claremont and Byrne's X-MEN. I acknowledge
similarities in tone but I found them to be different enough (Titans:
former kid sidekicks and their friends band together to fight evil and
forge their own path. X-Men: Team of young mutants band together to
protect and guide other mutants and protect humanity at large from
hostile mutants.) I definitely dug TITANS (and later, Levitz and Giffen's
LEGION) as DC trying to "do Marvel".
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Eric Smearman
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 10:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

"Everything great about TITANS could easily have been transposed
to JLA..."

Not sure I buy that. A good TITANS story does not necessarily make
for a good JLA story.
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 11:07pm | IP Logged | 3  


Honestly, Superman only worked for me in the movies. I didn't connect with anything Superman until Earth-2 Superman, in CRISIS. I'm not sure why, except E-2 Superman struck an emotional cord; he'd lost Lois, his wife, he was an anachronism, yet in the end the First, the Best.

I imagine that idea somehow in an alternate-world Wolfman/Perez JLA run, a Superman past his prime and popularity, and devoid of uniqueness. Not necessarily an "old" Superman, but a Superman who recognizes his usefulness to the world may not lie in saving Lois Lane from concrete shoes by thin-mustached gangsters. Perhaps Superman would have to rise to even bigger challenges, personal and galactic, within the comics of the 1980s

In fact, Roger Stern pulled off a lot of those kind of stories in his run. The difference is, superhero comics were already wounded and spiraling to their doom by that time. "JB's" Superman, the character Stern wrote, was killed off and never recovered. Instead of rediscovering what made Superman work, in theory, DC decided to tinker. And nothing is worse than tinkering--which is to say, losing the core meaning of while ostensibly improving.  
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 08 December 2012 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | 4  


"Everything great about TITANS could easily have been transposed 
to JLA..."

Not sure I buy that. A good TITANS story does not necessarily make 
for a good JLA story.

"Who is Donna Troy?" could have been "Who is Diana Prince?" DC creators are still screwing with Wonder Woman's origins; she's the most ill-defined "icon" I've ever seen. 

By the by, the Wolfman/Perez JLA are:

In a perfect world. 
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Monte Gruhlke
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 12:37am | IP Logged | 5  

Whaa? You want to take the Titan's stories and make them about the JLA? Perez's Titans are a large part of what drew me to comic books; fantastic art, good stories. People might not call the Titans real heroes, but with great art and storytelling, those issues became very compelling and often competed with what others were doing at the time. I don't think Titan stories make good JLA stories, just as I think the reverse wouldn't be true.
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Conner Dinkins
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 6  

I don't think Superman is boring but I've read a lot of boring Superman comics. I think he's a hard character to write. I grew up on the old TV show and cartoons and then the 70s movie. The comics I enjoyed about Superman were always the more fantastic in nature, the Superman Red/Blue and Superman 2020 something where he went to other dimensions or heavy Sci-Fi elements were included. As soon as he went to the Daily Planet and fought villain x in metropolis it was dull to me. I don't know what it was but I never cared for Lois and Jimmy etc. until JB did the book post Crisis.
Like I said I think he's tough to write, he is so noble and powerful it's difficult to create tension, you always know what he's going to do. He has so much history and it's all been done I imagine it's difficult to keep him fresh and the same character. I haven't looked at what they've done to him since the 90s. He died I picked it up for a while and dropped it again and he married Lois I picked it up and dropped it again. After that I never trusted them again. I have my old comics and form what little I've seen I don't want to ever read him again in the current stuff.
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Greg Friedman
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 7  

Superman is the exact opposite of boring.

Those that call him boring often do not like what he represents; or what they think he represents.

It's all pretty subjective; but Superman is such a touchstone and is subject to such contradictory scrutiny that other superheroes don't get.  

You make him too powerful and he's an unrelatable bore.  You weaken him and he's a weak and non-awe-inspiring pushover bore.  You make him a distant superior being and he's a distant bore.  You make him an "aw shucks" farmboy he's a corny pollyanna bore.  You make him a boyscout and he's a do-gooder bore.  You make him more "bad ass" and he's a boring poser.

Again, IMO Superman is the opposite of boring.

I only find him boring when he's de-powered, married, and Superman is relegated to as a disguise while farmboy Clark Kent is the "real guy".

But that's me.  Everybody has their tastes.


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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 2:03pm | IP Logged | 8  

This is why I really like what Mr Byrne did with the character. Such depth and so many interesting moments, but without compromising anything. That's the way to do it!
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Chad Carter
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Posted: 09 December 2012 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 9  


Whaa? You want to take the Titan's stories and make them about the JLA? Perez's Titans are a large part of what drew me to comic books; fantastic art, good stories. People might not call the Titans real heroes, but with great art and storytelling, those issues became very compelling and often competed with what others were doing at the time. I don't think Titan stories make good JLA stories, just as I think the reverse wouldn't be true.

How hard is this to understand? We're speaking of what Might Have Been, had DC Comics gotten their head out of their arse and put the right kind of talent on their best books. 

http://www.marvwolfman.com/marv/ORIGIN_OF_THE_NEW_TEEN_TITAN S.html


From the above, the one thing you can glean is that Wolfman only pitched a new Titans book as a way of escaping team-up comics hell, and Perez definitely wanted to become the new JLA artist (post-death of Dick Dillin.) Why Wolfman was relegated to team-up books after having written Fantastic Four and TOMB OF DRACULA at Marvel, I have no idea; but Wolfman seems to have been drawn to a new Titans book simply to use a character (the original, Russian Starfire) that he'd created with Len Wein.

And purely by accident, the New Teen Titans was a sensation. All fine and good, and maybe even a relief for Wolfman/Perez, who were not interfered with on a property of little value. Like Frank Miller's DAREDEVIL, there must have been more creative freedom than if dealing with a JLA book.

And yet anyone knows that Wolfman/Perez would have produced quality stories for the JLA, and would have used similar concepts and villains. The only difference, and a large one, is that with the Titans, the characters were not assured of continued existence. Unlike Superman and Batman, none of the Titans characters were untouchable by cold death, and this lent a particular tension to their stories, as I remember them.

Still though, I'd argue that Wolfman/Perez would have simply shifted that tension to other characters within the JLA dynamic. Characters like Green Arrow, Black Canary, Red Tornado, or in my suggestion, Robotman, Raven and eventually (once the Charlton heroes were purchased by DC) the Question (or Wildcat, another top fave of mine.) 

Superman would not perish or change very much, but certainly the lesser JLA members (and new created members, like perhaps Starfire or Raven) would have. 

So everyone who is flabbergasted at my suggestion of turning Titans stories into JLA stories, and insisting the two are completely separate, once again miss the point: what SHOULD have happened in 1980 is that Wolfman/Perez took over JLA after Dillin's death. And they WOULD have charged that book with the same energy, concepts, and new characters (Cyborg, Raven, Starfire, Deathstroke, ect) as the book opened up to them. Perhaps none of those particular characters/concepts (Trigon, Brother Blood) would have appeared as they had in TITANS, but maybe even better ones.

And in the end, in this day and age, no Teen Titans, but a far better grade of overall superhero comics in 1980 and onward, perhaps even saving the DCU from the "need" for CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS. Because certainly in my view, CRISIS introduced me to the DCU as a whole as I had never experienced it, excited me, only to thoroughly destroy everything about the DCU I had just discovered for the first time. It was like seeing the love of your life while passing on escalators going in different directions, a moment only and gone.

And look at it this way: Cyborg's part of the JLA now, has always been a member in the NuDC continuity. Wolfman/Perez's NEW TEEN TITANS has been eradicated from DCU history. So there you have it, thirty-plus years later, only without a Wolfman/Perez JLA run to have saved/redefined DC Comics in the 1980s. Meanwhile, we're still stuck with the spawn of the Teen Titans, the results of DC trying to replicate that accidental success, in progressively worse and worse ways. 


Edited by Chad Carter on 09 December 2012 at 3:00pm
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Posted: 10 December 2012 at 4:11am | IP Logged | 10  

Ask him to draw a bank robber in a suit and hat, packing a tommy gun, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who could do it better. But the more outlandish elements....?
--

A very interesting observation.
Among the first Superman comics I read, were reprints of the stories Swan did with Denny O'Neil. O'Neil has admitted that he was probably not a good fit for Superman (I think he did fine), but the match must have suited Swan's style very well - because his art was nothing short of splendid during that run. Because of that, Swan pretty much set the template for me when it comes to how Superman should look.
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Shawn Kane
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Posted: 10 December 2012 at 8:33am | IP Logged | 11  

I love Superman. Unfortunately, the comics are probably the least among what made me love Superman. The movies, the TV show, the cartoons, the toys...and then JB took over and I bought the comics. I really enjoyed the JB period and am satisfied readng those issues to the Loeb/McGuinness run. I liked Kurt Busiek's run a while back but beyond that I haven't really loved anything else. I was interested with the Perez New 52 run but it really wasn't my Superman.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 10 December 2012 at 9:30am | IP Logged | 12  

If I were recommending Superman to a new reader, I'd recommend the following:

Superman The Movie
Mr Byrne's run on the Superman titles
The Superboy TV Series

Okay, the Superboy TV series isn't, strictly speaking, Superman, but the two actors who played Superboy - John Haymes-Newton and Gerard Christopher - were around the same age (or older) as Christopher Reeve was when he played Superman. For instance, Gerard Christopher was in his early thirties when the Superboy series ended, whereas Christopher Reeve was in his late twenties when he played Superman for the first time.

My point, if I have one, is that whilst the show is about Superboy, it can be viewed as a Superman series in a certain sense and features super-heroics, altruism and comic-style stories.
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