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Brian Lewis
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 13 August 2012
Posts: 476
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 1
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I am one of those who never had a huge interest in Superman. I have read a great number of Superman stories, and I feel I get the character, but what I get isn't for me. Yet there are some versions of Superman I find truly compelling. I tend to gravitate to imaginary and Elseworld Superman stories. I love Generations I & II. I loved Red Son. This largely could be due to a predictability factor that goes away. When I was a kid, reading my older brothers comics, I also gravitated to What If as my favorite series for that reason.Beyond the comics, I was surprised when I discovered I really liked Smallville. I didn't start watching the series till season 9. But I went back and watched the entire series in time for the finale. It became my favorite origin version. I couldn't put my finger on why, initially. Ultimately, I think its because its the most Marvelized version of Clark Kent I have ever come across.
I don't believe Superman is boring unto himself. But I can understand how different people can prefer something else.
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Brian Rhodes
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3414
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 6:28pm | IP Logged | 2
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I didn't find myself bored reading JB's MAN OF STEEL mini and subsequent Superman work. SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE is deliberately slow, at times (Smallville), but not boring. Any moment when Superman is on the screen is not boring (ok, maybe the Can You Read My Mind sequence...)
Edited by Brian Rhodes on 10 December 2012 at 6:49pm
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12185
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 3
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Beyond the comics, I was surprised when I discovered I really liked Smallville. I didn't start watching the series till season 9. But I went back and watched the entire series in time for the finale. It became my favorite origin version.
***
I got some enjoyment out of SMALLVILLE, but I thought ten years was far too long to tell the story. It dragged in places for me. I thought the series should have run for a maximum of five years.
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 7:47pm | IP Logged | 4
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I don't see why we can't have a "Marvelized" Superman mixed with a "classic" DC Superman. I think this is why Chris Reeves Superman hit all the right points with me. The movie had an almost Marvel style wit and since of humor combined with the sci-fi/pulp grandeur that was the basis of DC comics.
JB's summation of the strengths and weaknesses of Kurt Swan is spot on for me. I have a great deal of respect for his art, but once you get guys like Neal Adams, JB, Perez, Garcia Lopez, etc, etc, coming on the scene, allowing Swan to monopolize BOTH Superman titles (sans the occasional fill in) makes and made little since to me. I do, however, respect DC's loyalty.
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Wallace Sellars
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 17852
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 5
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I really enjoyed what JB did with the Man of Steel. In fact, when it
comes to Superman comics, our host takes top honors! However,
my Superman is still the George Reeves television version of the
character.
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Doug Campbell
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 March 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 365
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 10:02pm | IP Logged | 6
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I might be counted among those who have at times said Superman is boring. Of course it is true that that is more of a problem with the writers than the character. That said, however, Superman has had more than his fair share of not so interesting stories.
My objection isn't so much to the character's innate nobility as it is to his perennial blandness. Being virtuous isn't the same thing as having a real personality. He isn't usually portrayed as having any quirks, hobbies, aspirations, anxieties, or indeed much of a sense of humor. Contrast this with Captain America, who is similarly noble, and yet has a much more well-defined personality.
Perhaps this is part of the difference between Marvel and DC, at least during the silver age. Marvel super heroes all seemed three dimensional, while the stars of DC's pantheon was far less vivid. Can anybody really tell, for example, the difference between the Atom and the Flash out of uniform? But could anybody have a similar problem differentiating between Tony Stark and Henry Pym in panels portraying them in civilian attire?
So perhaps it's a matter of personal taste, but I find Superman too often portrayed as casually omnipotent, unrelentingly bland, and without much of an appeal beyond his iconic status as the benchmark of superheroism. I certainly have found some Superman stories very enjoyable over the years (not a few of which were penned by our esteemed host), but for my money far fewer than, say, those featuring Spider-man or Batman.
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Mike Norris
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4272
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 7
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Chad Carter wrote:
| ]From the above, the one thing you can glean is that Wolfman only pitched a new Titans book as a way of escaping team-up comics hell, and Perez definitely wanted to become the new JLA artist (post-death of Dick Dillin.) Why Wolfman was relegated to team-up books after having written Fantastic Four and TOMB OF DRACULA at Marvel, I have no idea; but Wolfman seems to have been drawn to a new Titans book simply to use a character (the original, Russian Starfire) that he'd created with Len Wein. |
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Did you actually read what Wolfman wrote?
Yeah he pitched TNTT in the hope that it would get him off his remaining team up book. But he was also a fan of the old Haney/Cardy run and had written Teen Titians early in his pro career. He was already writing Superman at the time too. So he was already working on DC "top character".
He mentions Wein co-creating the Russian Starfire as an aside, showing that Wein was interested in the Teen Titans in the past and would go to bat for the title. It wasn't to use the Russian Starfire.
As for "re purposing" the New Teen Titans into JLA stories. I don't see how that could work. The teams had totally different dynamics, especially back then. I think JB himself has discussed this. You can't always tell a story by substituting one character for another without fundamentally changing who and what that character is.
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Shaun Barry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 08 December 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 7248
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| Posted: 10 December 2012 at 10:20pm | IP Logged | 8
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My guess is that some people/fans find Superman "boring" because they may claim they can't "relate" to him. He's an alien, he's too powerful, he can fly, he always "does the right thing" (oh, boo-hoo!), etc. But why does one necessarily need to relate to any character all the time? Can't they enjoy Superman stories because he's an alien, and he can fly, and he can kick almost anyone's butt, and lacks the general selfish and needy angst that plagues about 99% of us? Can't it just be fun to follow a character like that?
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Robert White
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4560
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| Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:57am | IP Logged | 9
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Being able to "relate" to characters isn't the important part. What's most important, is to be able to empathize with a lead character. I can empathize with everyone from Peter Parker and Ben Grimm to Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. Beyond them, I can empathize with seemingly unknowable characters like Dr. Strange and the Silver Surfer. (A main them with both is isolation to varying degrees.) All of these characters have certain tragic points, or personality quirks, that I understand and can empathize with. I like that word better in this context because it's more reasonable and covers a lot more ground.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12185
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| Posted: 11 December 2012 at 7:12am | IP Logged | 10
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But why does one necessarily need to relate to any character all the time? Can't they enjoy Superman stories because he's an alien, and he can fly, and he can kick almost anyone's butt, and lacks the general selfish and needy angst that plagues about 99% of us? Can't it just be fun to follow a character like that?
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Very well said, Shaun.
It can be nice to relate to some characters, but I totally agree with what you're saying. I've never flown a fighter jet or served in an air force, but I feel I can enjoy fiction featuring fighter jet pilots. It's actually the escapism that helps. If I want to relate to anyone, well I can relate to, erm, myself, but for a bit of escapism, why not watch a fighter jet do Mach 2 at tens of thousands of feet?
I don't mind relating to things. Like Peter Parker in the early Stan Lee/Steve Ditko tales, I often felt that no-one understood me as a teenager. So that is fine, but Superman is this alien character who can do lots of super things which I'll never be able to do. I don't really want to relate to him, I simply want to enjoy his adventures.
Edited by Robbie Parry on 11 December 2012 at 7:13am
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36533
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| Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:22am | IP Logged | 11
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For what it's worth, I need to find something relateable in characters that I read about. I'll never fly jets, but I could find something in Hal Jordan to relate to: best friend, girl troubles, etc. I'll never wear a spider suit and swing through the streets of Manhattan, but I can certainly relate to Peter Parker. I can relate to the family issues in Thor, the family dynamic in FF, and the issues of a child in NEW TEEN TITANS all without being a god, having gone through Cosmic Rays or being the torch bearer for an older generation of heroes. I'm not saying this specific to Superman, but in general. If I can't find something to connect with in a character, 9 times out of 10 I don't read stories about that character.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12185
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| Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:25am | IP Logged | 12
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Relating to the FF is an interesting one. I made by younger brother's life annoying at times (as did he to me). I'd always hide things from him or he'd push my buttons. We'd argue, we'd fight, but we loved each other and were very protective towards each other. I always think of our fights when I read an FF story where The Thing and Human Torch are bickering.
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