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Matt Reed
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:31am | IP Logged | 1  

Exactly.  I have a younger brother, so I can definitely relate.  But even if you're an only child, there are certainly relateable elements in the characters.  What kid doesn't go through a phase where they feel ugly or rejected like Ben?  What kid isn't socially awkward at some point in their formative years like Reed?  

Sometimes I think it's been so long since people started reading the characters that they enjoy that they've forgotten just what it was that made them fans in the first place.  Peel back the years and I'm sure you'll find something in all of them that resonates and kept you coming back for more. 
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Greg Woronchak
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:18am | IP Logged | 2  

I really enjoyed what JB did with the Man of Steel.

I second that. JB's Superman is fun and heroic, and the stories still hold up well. By some magic, his issues invite repeated readings, and never disappoint.
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 3  

DOUG: My objection isn't so much to the character's innate nobility as it is to his perennial blandness. Being virtuous isn't the same thing as having a real personality. He isn't usually portrayed as having any quirks, hobbies, aspirations, anxieties, or indeed much of a sense of humor. Contrast this with Captain America, who is similarly noble, and yet has a much more well-defined personality.

***********

SER: Yes, Steve Rogers was a "man out of his time" who was somewhat tortured by the loss of his partner, Bucky. That was a very "Marvel" element to the character. Batman, for example, should be a creature of the night but shouldn't be tortured by the loss of his parents. I was reading some BATMAN comics from the 1950s and early 1960s and you could go a while without being reminded that Batman's parents had been murdered. Post DARK KNIGHT, it became part of an obligatory soliloquy in each issue.

DC characters shouldn't become Marvel characters. It's a poor fit and you lose some of what makes DC characters special. What I liked about JB's DC work, especially Superman, is that he understood that and transferred only the "Marvelisms" that were applicable to DC -- specifically the layouts and design.

Clark Kent didn't need tragedy to be interesting. He's SUPERMAN, after all. JB brought back the classic love triangle (Lois-Clark-Superman) but actually made Clark engaged in it. Before, Superman either dated Lois while constantly saying "No, no,no, we can never be together" or toyed with her ("If you love Clark -- the person I'm nothing like -- then you'll be worthy of me." Huh?) JB's Clark Kent wanted Lois to love him for himself because, well, that's who he was. Superman was just the "cool job." I could relate to that conflict and admired Superman for resisting telling Lois that he actually was the "rock star" so that she'd fall for him.

I also thought keeping the Kents alive helped ground Clark Kent and flesh him out as a real person. Pre-MAN OF STEEL, Superman's sole living relative was Supergirl so they related to each other as superheroes, usually hanging out at the Fortress of Solitude and discussing the latest villain. The Kents could only relate to Superman as CLARK KENT, so the setting and the stories could show you a real person. A very good touch.

Of course, later creators seemed intent on dismantling this. Superman revealed his identity to Lois (no conflict now) and married her. Now, he's dating Wonder Woman, I guess. I'm not sure if his parents are still alive or not.
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Robbie Parry
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 3:49pm | IP Logged | 4  

I also thought keeping the Kents alive helped ground Clark Kent and flesh him out as a real person. Pre-MAN OF STEEL, Superman's sole living relative was Supergirl so they related to each other as superheroes, usually hanging out at the Fortress of Solitude and discussing the latest villain. The Kents could only relate to Superman as CLARK KENT, so the setting and the stories could show you a real person. A very good touch.

***

Agreed.

One thing I disliked (which Mr. Byrne didn't do when he updated the character) was Superman saying, "Great Rao!" or "Great Krypton!" It made no sense that a person raised on Earth would say anything like that. 

Would, say, an Australian-born individual, who came to America as a baby, go around saying, "Stone the crows!" No, he'd likely speak in a way which was consistent with his upbringing in the US. So when Superman, raised in America, would say things like "Great Rao!", I often found it distracting and without conviction.

So I'm glad that Mr. Byrne's Superman, whilst doing all the superhero stuff, gave us a grounded Superman who wasn't pining for Krypton every five minutes or using Kryptonian sayings. 
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Steven Myers
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 5  

If the Kents aren't alive at the time Clark becomes Superman there doesn't seem to be a reason for him to keep a separate civilian identity. Why not just be super-powered Clark Kent? Having his parents be alive was the best idea JB had concerning the reboot.
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Marc M. Woolman
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 6  

Let's be clear what "Marvelized" actually means. It means action, drama, intrigue and a real possibility of danger for the characters. It means creating the types of comics that far and away, the vast majority of readers prefer to buy.

The idea that JB just brought a Marvel art style and nothing else to Superman is ridiculous. So many artists worked back and forth for DC and Marvel there wasn't a "Marvel "style, only individual artist's styles.

In either case JB brought more to Superman than just his art.
Spoiler: 
In JB's first issue, Superman almost dies in battle against one of his foes (Metallo) and only because of interference from Lex Luthor did Superman survive. 
It took only one issue, the first one, for JB to establish that it's no longer a case of "don't worry, he's Superman, he's got this" and instead we have a noble hero who can be defeated and even face the possibility of death during battles. 
That is drama. That is action. That is how to do exciting Superman comics.
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Ronald Joseph
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 5:50pm | IP Logged | 7  

Would, say, an Australian-born individual, who came to America as a baby, go around saying, "Stone the crows!" No, he'd likely speak in a way which was consistent with his upbringing in the US. So when Superman, raised in America, would say things like "Great Rao!", I often found it distracting and without conviction.

Not to drift, but that's an interesting point.

My girlfriend was born in Ireland and moved here when she was very young.  But her parents, whose house she grew up in, used many "Irish terms" that she picked up and to this day she still uses them.  It confused me the first time I heard each of them but now I know what she's talking about!  

So, the Australian might actually use "stone the crows" or something.  But Superman? Nah.  He'd say things Ma and Pa Kent said.      
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Robert White
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 7:56pm | IP Logged | 8  

I agree that "Marvelizaton" has too closely been tied to a mindset that only Marvel comics should read or look like that. Innovation, once it's out of the bag, belongs to everyone, regardless of the source. Without question, the Marvel comics being produced from 1961-1970 were vastly superior to the DC comics of the time, which read little different than they did 15 or 20 years prior. 

Almost across the board, historians and creators preferred the early Superman stories to the later fairy tale type stories, certainly after that had a chance to actually read them. Much of the stuff that some Superman fans deem "essential" sprang from a mandate by DC after WWII that put the brakes on drama, action, "relative realism", and more "sophisticated" pulp fiction themes. Without question, it greatly reduced the character of Batman from an artistic standpoint that wasn't corrected until the late 60's. 

The best Superman has ever been was during JB's run (as well as the whole Stern/Ordway era) the first two Superman films and his DC animated universe as well as the classic Fleischer cartoons. 


Edited by Robert White on 11 December 2012 at 7:58pm
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Aaron Smith
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 8:36pm | IP Logged | 9  

On the subject of relating to characters, as was brought up earlier:

Looking back on when I discovered my favorite heroes, which was between the ages of 5 and 10 for most of them, I find that they fall into two categories. There were those I could relate to then (Spider-Man, for example) and those that I aspired to or hoped I could someday be like (Captain America). In either case, there was something that spoke to me, made me realize I was like them in some way or made me want to eventually live up to their example.  

 

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David Miller
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 9:57pm | IP Logged | 10  

I think Jack Kirby did a great job "Marvelizing" Superman in his New Gods work.  The secret identity is barely a factor, with Clark Kent not making an appearance until 6 issues into Kirby's run, for a three issue stint and then isn't seen again. Kirby climaxed his Jimmy Olsen run with "A Superman in Supertown" which movingly evokes Superman as an outsider reminiscent of the "man out of time" Captain America. 
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Stephen Robinson
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Posted: 11 December 2012 at 10:36pm | IP Logged | 11  


If the Kents aren't alive at the time Clark becomes Superman there doesn't seem to be a reason for him to keep a separate civilian identity. Why not just be super-powered Clark Kent? Having his parents be alive was the best idea JB had concerning the reboot.

*******

SER: I recall a Silver Age Superman story that "answered" this question in an imaginary story by having people constantly stopping by Clark Kent's apartment to ask him for favors. As a kid (and even now), that bugged me because it was clearly "cheating." Superman had an established Fortress of Solitude. There really was no reason for the Silver Age Superman to be Clark Kent other than that plot mandate.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Posted: 12 December 2012 at 2:11am | IP Logged | 12  

 Robert White wrote:
Without question, the Marvel comics being produced from 1961-1970 were vastly superior to the DC comics of the time

All I can say is that I strongly disagree with that opinion.  Marvel comics were quite different from DC comics in the 60's, but I would not say they were better.  Both companies had their strengths and weaknesses.  DC Comics certainly did have drama and intrigue at times.  They didn't have as much action and violence (in the sense of pages-long battles between hero and villain), but again, I don't necessarily need that in every superhero story.  I know that Marvel won the war in terms of their style coming to dominate all superhero comics, and I know this is Marvel-centric board, but I can't understand the viewpoint that the Marvel style is inherently, universally superior across the board.  I love old Marvel comics, but I also love a good, plot-driven gimmicky DC story, as well as the bizarre psychological dramas of Weisinger-era Superman.  It makes me wonder how many older Superman stories you guys have read?  If you can't appreciate the greatness of that first Lori Lemaris story by Bill Finger, or "Superman Under the Red Sun" by Edmond Hamilton, or "The Death of Superman" by Siegel, I guess I don't know what to tell you.    

 David Miller wrote:
Kirby climaxed his Jimmy Olsen run with "A Superman in Supertown" which movingly evokes Superman as an outsider reminiscent of the "man out of time" Captain America.

I thought that was a rather ham-fisted attempt to shoehorn some Marvel-style angst into Superman, and it didn't fit at all.  As Stephen said, Superman doesn't need to have angst... he's happy and well-adjusted.  And the particular idea Kirby came up with doesn't fit with the Superman we'd seen all those years.  Superman doesn't see himself as an outsider, he sees himself as an earthling and an American.  The idea of Superman longing to live with other super-powered beings so he can feel "normal" just does not ring true.   




Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 12 December 2012 at 2:15am
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