| Author |
|
William Costello Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 August 2012 Location: United States Posts: 812
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 1:07pm | IP Logged | 1
|
|
|
Jason Czeskleba: "As Stephen said, Superman doesn't need to have angst... he's happy and well-adjusted. And the particular idea Kirby came up with doesn't fit with the Superman we'd seen all those years. Superman doesn't see himself as an outsider, he sees himself as an earthling and an American. The idea of Superman longing to live with other super-powered beings so he can feel "normal" just does not ring true. "I'm not sure you'll like the upcoming Man of Steel movie, then. The second preview was released yesterday. Based on the two-minute preview, "happy and well-adjusted" doesn't look like it's going to be in the movie.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 137143
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 1:10pm | IP Logged | 2
|
|
|
I'm not sure you'll like the upcoming Man of Steel movie, then. The second preview was released yesterday. Based on the two-minute preview, "happy and well-adjusted" doesn't look like it's going to be in the movie.•• Hey, who can't LOVE that CLASSIC moment when Pa Kent suggests that maybe it would be appropriate for Clark to let people DIE to protect his secret identity!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 3
|
|
|
Chad Carter wrote:
| ]From the above, the one thing you can glean is that Wolfman only pitched a new Titans book as a way of escaping team-up comics hell, and Perez definitely wanted to become the new JLA artist (post-death of Dick Dillin.) Why Wolfman was relegated to team-up books after having written Fantastic Four and TOMB OF DRACULA at Marvel, I have no idea; but Wolfman seems to have been drawn to a new Titans book simply to use a character (the original, Russian Starfire) that he'd created with Len Wein. |
|
| Did you actually read what Wolfman wrote?
Yeah he pitched TNTT in the hope that it would get him off his remaining team up book. But he was also a fan of the old Haney/Cardy run and had written Teen Titians early in his pro career. He was already writing Superman at the time too. So he was already working on DC "top character".
How does quibbling over the number of team-up books and his fanship of the Titans change the fact that Perez was hot to do JLA and Wolfman presumably would desire working on the highest-profile book at DC at the time?
Wolfman "had" to work on a Titans book rather than a team-up book. That's the bottom line. From what I've gleaned, Wolfman expected Titans to tank, which god willing it should have.
And still, nobody here gets it: the world would have been a better place with a Wolfman/Perez JLA than the New Teen Titans. Accept it, live it, be it. I can talk all day about why, but nobody seems to want to let go of their blind devotion to Teen Titans, a book whose history has been eradicated from DC lore as we speak. How essential is a comic book concept, no matter its success, that can easily be swept away? Is the New Teen Titans more essential than Geoff Johns' ludicrous multi-colored Lanterns crap, which is now a core concept at DC? Not according to the big brains running the show today. Oh, we still have Nightwing? What a relief!
Am I saying Wolfman/Perez's JLA would be impossible to sweep under the rug? Absolutely. I think the impact on superhero comics in general would have been immeasurable. I've already stated that that singular run would, if nothing else, have altered DC's entire publishing history from 1980 on. I think it would have changed comics to the point of somebody like John Byrne still working for the company. Or maybe never having worked for the company.
Anyway, anyone seriously suggesting the Teen Titans is as important a concept as the JLA has no grasp of comics' publishing history nor perspective on same.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Chad Carter Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 June 2005 Posts: 9584
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 2:12pm | IP Logged | 4
|
|
|
And, has anyone actually read those Titans books from the '80s again recently? It really is like revisiting the Claremont X-Men: overwritten, overwrought, and overindulgent in every way. Great art in both cases though.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5833
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 4:50pm | IP Logged | 5
|
|
|
I'm not sure you'll like the upcoming Man of Steel movie, then. The second preview was released yesterday. Based on the two-minute preview, "happy and well-adjusted" doesn't look like it's going to be in the movie.
��
Hey, who can't LOVE that CLASSIC moment when Pa Kent suggests that maybe it would be appropriate for Clark to let people DIE to protect his secret identity!
**
SER: I was stunned by how off-base this Pa Kent was. Imagine if this was a WWII movie and the son is considering going off to serve because he can't "let people die" and his father says, "Well, maybe you can." Huh?
I wonder if the creators are intentionally depicting a Pa Kent unlike any we've seen before or do they genuinely believe this is the same guy from the first Donner film and the MAN OF STEEL comic? The Pa Kent in those stories taught Clark *humility* and that his powers gave him a *responsibility* to others beyond "just scoring touchdowns."
Feh.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5833
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 6
|
|
|
JASON: I love old Marvel comics, but I also love a good, plot-driven gimmicky DC story, as well as the bizarre psychological dramas of Weisinger-era Superman. It makes me wonder how many older Superman stories you guys have read? If you can't appreciate the greatness of that first Lori Lemaris story by Bill Finger, or "Superman Under the Red Sun" by Edmond Hamilton, or "The Death of Superman" by Siegel, I guess I don't know what to tell you.
**************
SER: I agree. There is unbridled FUN in classic Silver Age comics. I think it was Cary Bates who argued that Marvel was targeting older readers, which he defined as college students. I'm not entirely sure I agree. However, I think DC's reaction in the early '70s to Marvel's success was mixed. The best cases were the Neal Adams-influenced Batman and Jack Kirby's Fourth World. However, I think "relevance" was less successful. GREEN LANTERN/GREEN ARROW was beautifully drawn but not as FUN as classic Silver Age stories nor really as much fun as a FANTASTIC FOUR comic.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12185
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 7
|
|
|
I agree. There is unbridled FUN in classic Silver Age comics.
***
It's the sheer unpredictability that made it all so fantastic and is one reason I love buying back issues from that time!
With *some* comics today, you'll pick up five or six consecutive issues of Superman moping around or talking to a priest for an entire issue. Back then, it was all so unpredictable. One month might feature Lex Luthor aiming some sort of ray at Superman, but the next month might feature Jimmy Olsen as a werewolf. The month after, it'd be Superman fighting bank robbers, but then the month after that, you might see Superman with an insect head!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robert White Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 4560
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 5:35pm | IP Logged | 8
|
|
|
There was certainly some charming Silver Age DC issues, and it's true that beyond a few "best of" trades my knowledge is limited, but DC was obviously stuck in a rut of creating comics that only appealed to kids with often "mindlessly" simplistic morality and plots. There was nothing at all that excluded kids from reading Marvel comics in the Silver Age, they were just as FUN, but the vital point is that they were written in a way that invited EVERYONE in on the party. For me, it's not even close.
Going back to Batman, I find it extremely hard to get into post WWII-pre-Neal Adams Batman. It's just not the character I love and certainly not the character as originally envisioned. (Conversely, I find it hard to accept Batman's depiction post 1992 most of them time) Superman is not quite as bad for me, since fantastic, fairy-tale themes fit a character like that better, but I still feel that he was more interesting from 1938-1945 (or so). I much prefer the "pulpy" feel of the stories to the silliness that was to come.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Robbie Parry Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 12185
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 5:58pm | IP Logged | 9
|
|
|
I much prefer the "pulpy" feel of the stories to the silliness that was to come.
***
I guess that shows, and this is a good thing, how people's preferences are different. Some of my favourite Superman and Batman tales are the quirky ones (and I do not use the word "quirky" in a pejorative sense).
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Michael Casselman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1273
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 6:04pm | IP Logged | 10
|
|
|
And still, nobody here gets it: the world would have been a better place with a Wolfman/Perez JLA than the New Teen Titans. Accept it, live it, be it. I can talk all day about why, but nobody seems to want to let go of their blind devotion to Teen Titans, a book whose history has been eradicated from DC lore as we speak. How essential is a comic book concept, no matter its success, that can easily be swept away? Is the New Teen Titans more essential than Geoff Johns' ludicrous multi-colored Lanterns crap, which is now a core concept at DC? Not according to the big brains running the show today. Oh, we still have Nightwing? What a relief!
++++++++++++++++
You can easily say that now (regarding the NTT), but you'll eat those words when DC reboots yet again in 5 years. ;-)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Kip Lewis Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 March 2011 Posts: 2877
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 11
|
|
|
Who says Wolfman/Perez would have had the same kind of magic on the JLA that they had on the TT? TT is a very different kind of storytelling. As much of the story was soap opera as it was action. JLA is a team of characters who were under the control of their individual titles. The only title Wolfman and Perez had to deal was Robin with Batman. The bulk of the team was their and that gave them freedom they would not have had on the JLA.
Maybe their JLA would have been great, but there is no guarantee.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Stephen Robinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 5833
|
| Posted: 12 December 2012 at 8:45pm | IP Logged | 12
|
|
|
KIP: Maybe (Wolfman/Perez) JLA would have been great, but there is no guarantee.
**********
SER: I agree. Your point about the soap opera element of TITANS is also key. TT was DC's X-MEN (probably not in sales, though). You needed the angst of youth to pull that off.
I think aging the Titans to early adulthood was a mistake (I prefer the animated version because they look and behave like teens) and turning Dick Grayson into Nightwing was arguably one of DC's biggest mistakes.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |