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Marc Woolman
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Joined: 10 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 39
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 1  

Thanks JB for explaining Superman's invulnerability failing against Thor's hammer yet simultaneously working as usual against a bullet fired at the same time.

Reading your Zantanna spell makes me hope that maybe you'll use her in an upcoming Blood of the Demon story.

If Zantana spoke Etrigan's transformation spell backwards (assuming she knew it)could she transfrom him back to Jason Blood? I would love to see you do some work with Zantanna, or Dr Strange. After reading your handling of Reed Richards I was convinced you must be super-scientist yourself to portay Reed so brilliantly. I wonder what I'd think if you wrote a Zantanna story or two?

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Kevin Pierce
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Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 2  

Thanks for clearing that up for us JB.
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John Byrne

Robot Wrangler

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 102266
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 7:15pm | IP Logged | 3  

Reading your Zantanna spell makes me hope that
maybe you'll use her in an upcoming Blood of the
Demon story.


*****

Issue 3 soon enough?
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Steve Horton
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3574
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 7:30pm | IP Logged | 4  

 John Byrne wrote:

Issue 3 soon enough?

I gotta ask - fishnets or no fishnets?

-Steve

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John Leach
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1860
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 5  

 John Byrne wrote:
Reading your Zantanna spell makes me hope that
maybe you'll use her in an upcoming Blood of the
Demon story.


*****

Issue 3 soon enough?

That's cool!  I always like seeing her pop up in a story...

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Michael Hatton
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Joined: 26 May 2004
Posts: 525
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 6  

Even though I started this topic I have not posted again because I am really not that familiar with the properties of Thor's hammer.  I will let the people who know more about it post on that topic.

Some of the comments about Superman has gotten me thinking.

People say that Superman is vulnerable to magic, because they otherwise say he is invulnerable.  Technically Superman is not invulnerable.  If someone close to his strength like Supergirl hits him it is going to hurt. 

You could say the same thing about me.  I am invulnerable unless hit with sufficient force to hurt me.  The difference between me and Superman is that his threshold is higher than mine, but both of us are vulnerable after a certain point.

One question I have about Superman is this.  Is his threshold for the amount of force he can take proportional to his strength?  In other words if he is 100 times as strong as me is can he also withstand 100 times the amount of force or is that limit higher?  If it his higher then the Ferrigno Swarzenegger analogy might break down.  Since Thor's hammer seems to have some other abilities my question might not apply.

A good one to answer my question would be JB since he was the one to set the strength and vulnerability levels of Superman in the Man of Steel reboot.


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Jonathan Stover
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Joined: 01 June 2004
Posts: 749
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 9:51pm | IP Logged | 7  

Leaving the hammer out of it for a moment, what I do like when Superman is being written right is the idea that, once he's got a read on his opponent, he'll compensate as well within the bounds of being Superman. Why would Thor have an advantage the next time he and Superman met if they met in battle? Heck, Superman might have figured out at that point that Thor's really strong and pretty invulnerable and thus cut loose with anything from some refreshing heat vision to seeing what happens if Thor doesn't have oxygen. Or is in a super-cold environment.

Superman's not a dummy.  Out of morality, he's concerned about the chance of killing an opponent, but the concern that Superman should exhibit when he first encounters a foe whose powers and resistances he's not sure of are part of being Superman, as is figuring out how to deal with someone. He's not just Superman because he could beat up Thor -- he's also Superman because he'd initially worry that he might kill Thor and later he might figure out how to defeat Thor without having to hit him with a heavy object again and again.  Thor's a warrior.  Superman's a champion -- and a champion doesn't always resolve things by trying to prove who's stronger.

OK, I really stole that warrior/champion dichotomy, didn't I?

Cheers, Jon

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Kevin Pierce
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Joined: 10 September 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 2010
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:12pm | IP Logged | 8  

He's not just Superman because he could beat up Thor -- he's also Superman because he'd initially worry that he might kill Thor and later he might figure out how to defeat Thor without having to hit him with a heavy object again and again.

******************************************************
I seriously doubt Superman would have a easy time killing Thor. He would have his hands full barely beating him.
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Jonathan Stover
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Joined: 01 June 2004
Posts: 749
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 9  

I didn't say it would be easy, Kevin -- and for the record, I like Thor, and there are lots of situations I can imagine in which Thor would beat Superman. I object only to the idea that Superman's concern makes him a putz, somehow. I tend to think of Superman as a hero who's shackled in some ways in battle by the way he thinks, but in far more important ways increased by the way he thinks -- in part morally because he won't kill because he's not judge, jury and executioner; in part intellectually because Superman actually should need to use his brain to defuse a situation; and in part, well, morally as well because his decency should be able to to cause opponents who aren't "evil" to rethink what they're doing and sometimes listen to reason or ethics or morality.

Sounds schmaltzy, I guess, but that's my Superman.

Cheers, Jon

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John Byrne

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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 102266
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:25pm | IP Logged | 10  

I seriously doubt Superman would have a easy time killing Thor. He would have his hands full barely beating him.

******

Given the opportunity (and the inclination) Superman could punch out Thor's heart, or crush his head like a walnut, or just grab his ankles and make a wish.

I imagine any of those would slow Thor down somewhat.

Remember, Thor is immortal in the sense that he will live forever unless he is killed. He is not unkillable, and, to make matters worse in this proposed battle, he is not invulnerable either.

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John Byrne

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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:29pm | IP Logged | 11  

fishnets or no fishnets?

***

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John Byrne

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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 102266
Posted: 23 March 2005 at 11:35pm | IP Logged | 12  

People say that Superman is vulnerable to magic, because they otherwise say he is invulnerable.  Technically Superman is not invulnerable.  If someone close to his strength like Supergirl hits him it is going to hurt. 

****

There are several definitions of "invulnerable" in the Dictionary, at least one of which is "immune to or proof against attack". Since we have seen Superman attacked many times (kinda dull comics, otherwise) this means he is not "invulnerable" in this sense of the word. "My" Superman would likely not survive a nuclear blast, or be able to fly thru the heart of the Sun, as the Pre-me did on a regular basis. (He used to clean his costume by flying thru the sun!)

However, that said, you seem to be confusing "being hurt" with "hurting". Superman can, and does, feel pain. He doubtless has a higher threshold than were mere mortals, but that does not mean a bolt of lightning (at least in my day) wouldn't do considerably more than "tickle". It just wouldn't do physical damage. For that, we would have to move much, much, much higher up the scale. So if Supergirl punched him, he would feel it, and it might even hurt -- but it wouldn't bruise.

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