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David Miller
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3130
Posted: 09 January 2021 at 7:59pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Trump's speech on Wednesday.

It's worth watching if you have an interest in stomach-turning modern history. In case anyone doubts Trump intended to inspire violence against Congress, he called on police and military to join the marchers. He practically reads from Fascism For Dummies.

 QUOTE:
This is a time for strength.

A Nuremberg Rally without style, showmanship, charisma or class.
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Conrad Teves
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Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2239
Posted: 09 January 2021 at 9:21pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I've been referring to his regular rallies as "Nurembergs" for some time.  Particularly the ones that were in non-campaign years.  They serve the same function:  building a sense of unity through cheering vague symbolism paired with mockery of those you don't like. 

None of this is unexpected.  They've been telling us their intentions for years.  The only upside is they are bunch of poser LARPers in tacticool who accidentally tase themselves in the balls.  The Republic may well have been saved by their incompetence. 

But even a moron can use a gun (major feature of the weapon), so this must be taken seriously.  Imagine a competent authoritarian at the helm.

NASA has a term (I doubt they originated it*) called "Nomalization of Deviance." When outlier events have either never occurred or are so rare you don't prepare for them, even though they may be a possible outcome or are even statistically inevitable. 

*Edited to add:  Was sociologist Diane Vaughn: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25742063/


Edited by Conrad Teves on 09 January 2021 at 9:25pm
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36154
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 1:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

 Joe Zhang wrote:
The American narrative has always needed a bad guy. We had Hitler. We had the Soviets. When the Cold War was done, we invented one in Manuel Noriega. Then Saddam Hussein. Gadaffi. Some of these guys, like Osama bin Laden, were genuine, avowed enemies of the United States. Others were indeed very evil, but just wanted to be left alone. It occurs to me that Donald Trump is the new Dr. Evil of the American narrative. The media has been telling us this for four straight years. With the invasion of the capitol his followers have become the new Al Queda. And social media is now treating them as they would terrorists, shutting down accounts and phone apps.

Really curious where you're going with this.  Are you saying that America has invented DJT as its newest "bad guy"?  That we've been so desperate for someone evil, couldn't find anyone, so the MSM and Democrats thrust it upon him?  It feels like that's where you're going here, as if to say that Trump hasn't earned and doesn't deserve four years of backlash for actions he has purposefully chosen and which would have taken down nearly every president before him if not for a Congressional majority too willing turn a blind eye.

What are you really saying, Joe? 
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Philippe Negrin
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Joined: 01 August 2007
Location: France
Posts: 2643
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 10:48am | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Did you guys see Arnold Schwarzenegger's message after the Capitol events ? Funny and so to the point.
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Joe Zhang - They are terrorists. They were armed and attacked the Capitol with intent to attack the vice president and the senates. And they got further than the al-Qaeda ever could. What MORE do you need?
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Eric Ladd
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Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4504
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 6:36pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

It appears impeachment proceedings will begin.
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16044
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

The house will first introduce a resolution to call upon Pence to invoke the 25th in Monday (draft here).

Seems a little sneaky to me, as the process -- if it happened -- would be Pence & the cabinet declaring to congress that Trump is unable to discharge his powers/duties, then Trump would write a letter back refuting this, and then congress would have up to 21 days to vote on the matter, which would obviously take us beyond inauguration day. 
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Matt Hawes
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16518
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Peter, it's a legitimate and legal way to hold Trump accountable and limit his capabilities to incite further chaos.

You want "sneaky",look no further than Mitch McConnell and his "poison pills" when moving to block giving aid to millions of Americans during the pandemic. THAT's sneaky!

The 25th amendment process is necessary to stop a madman from causing any more destruction.


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Marc Baptiste
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Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3655
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 8:03pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Peter,

Nothing sneaky about it - no more sneaky than a President using the pocket veto to veto legislation without ACTUALLY vetoing it, or making a recess appointment WITHOUT the consent of the Senate. 

If the framers of the 25th Amendment wanted to prevent the temporary removal of the president from occurring less than 21 days prior to his or her leaving office they could have easily incorporated that into the text of the amendment.

You want sneaky??  Just take a look the the history of Canadian prime ministers proroguing parliament for purely partisan political advantage.

Marc




Edited by Marc Baptiste on 10 January 2021 at 8:04pm
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Neil Lindholm
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Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4947
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Yeah, it's irritating when the PM in Canada does this. Cowardly. 

At least in Canada, we have a very simple method of removing a PM. A vote of non-confidence and he's gone. As well, I believe the Governor General could simply have a crazy PM removed on their own, which would be an interesting legal situation. Not sure though. 
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16044
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 9:58pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

It seems to me that impeachment is the mechanism designed to remove a president who has betrayed the public's trust and that the 25th is for when the president is unable to do his duties. Is Trump any more unable now than he ever was? It seems to me his ability is unchanged, but his willingess has disappeared. I therefore view invoking the 25th as a disingenuous move.

As for all the list of other sneaky things mentioned. Yes, I'm happy to concede these are all sneaky things. What's the relevance? Here's a list of dodgy things, this therefore precludes the need to consider the appropriateness -- and likely effectiveness -- of invoking the 25th.

You have a situation where a sitting President has lied to a massive base of people that trust him, riling them up with damaging consequences. Most sensible people agree this is unacceptable. The question is what is the best course of action to minimise the damage before he exits the door.

It's unfortunate and ugly that there is this powder keg of Trump's base, but it does exist. You go down this route -- which has never been used before -- and you have Pence and Congress saying Pence now has the powers of the President. And you will have Trump openly saying no, look here I am, clearly I am able to do the job. And the rules say I am president still. That's in the constitution, see, right here. And by the way, I fire my cabinet.

Now, does this make the mess any less dangerous? Have you made the situation better or worse?
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16044
Posted: 10 January 2021 at 10:08pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

For the record -- and I know this might be wishful thinking -- I think the best outcome would be for Trump to resign immediately.
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