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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8786
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 10:57am | IP Logged | 1
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So on day 1, DAY 1! Do Biden’s Presidency, some fuckwit Republican
is going to file impeachment charges against Biden.
+++++++++++++++++++++ And for the rest of his term, that fuckwit will be told by the Democrats to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down.
My question is this: If Trump doesn't pay Guiliani, does attorney-client privilege go out the window?
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 11:00am | IP Logged | 2
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Brian F., if that privilege goes out the window... what could Giuliani know that would be interesting?
Besides enough to make the most popular show on Hulu, Netflix, Disney+, and HBO Max combined. :)
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Charles Valderrama
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 3
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What bugs me is this - Were Trump to pardon himself, any future federal charges against him could end up in the Supreme Court - which leans 6-3 in Trump's favor, including three judges who were appointed by him!
No president has ever tried a self-pardon, so we don't have any precedent.
STILL, this Impeachment should prevent any pardon attempts by Trump... am I overthinking this??
-C!
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Dave Kopperman
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Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3677
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 12:32pm | IP Logged | 4
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A big part of Trump's appeal to his base is his transgressive nature - by extension, his followers feel they can therefore similarly transgress. When that's thwarted, the anger kicks in and Trump can stir up his base to act out against any target he's selected off the menu that day. If the impeachment trial finds him guilty, and the Supreme Court declares it's illegal for him to run, he can use that as further proof of the system being against him and all his followers and yadda yadda yadda. Nothing's going to stop him from running again if he so chooses to, legality be damned.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16107
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 12:38pm | IP Logged | 5
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Were Trump to pardon himself, any future federal charges against him could end up in the Supreme Court - which leans 6-3 in Trump's favor, including three judges who were appointed by him!----------------------------- In the event of Trump trying a self-pardon, I'd be quite happy to see the Supreme Court tackle that one. They'd probably find in his favour and it would highlight how ridiculous it is to have executive powers of pardon that are totally without constraint with the one exception of impeachment. Maybe this would lead to amending the wording to introduce a specific prohibition against self-pardoning.
I don't see how the impeachment affects his executive powers, as it will not be completed until after he leaves. As long as he holds the office, he holds the power of the president.
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Kevin Brown
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Joined: 31 May 2005
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Posts: 9114
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 12:49pm | IP Logged | 6
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Once again, Trump CANNOT be pardoned. He's impeached, twice now. This is Constitutional law.
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Tim O Neill
Byrne Robotics Security
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 10953
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:29pm | IP Logged | 7
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I don't think there is any question that McConnell is happy to hand this off to
Schumer, and the Democrats have to come in and clean up. There is so much
we don't know, and news of the attack gets more disturbing with each day.
What we see today will be different after the FBI combs through a massive
amount of images from social media and security cameras. And the more
elected officials and police/military/government that are involved, the worse it
gets.
The depressing thing about yesterday's session in the House is the way
Republicans are still holding onto voter fraud, even though there is no proof.
It's a dangerous lie, and I fear it is their new normal - they don't win elections
without the electoral college, and they will continue to rely on that and voter
suppression/gerrymandering. In other words, we now return to our regularly
scheduled racism.
Republicans strongest hand to win elections has been to demonize Democrats.
Now even the "mainstream" Republican voters are questioning the election
outcome. To remedy this, Republicans and only Republicans have to
distinguish truth from lies - that will be true bipartisanship. I think some will
try, and I hope they are successful, but I am honestly very skeptical. The only
way to remedy the white supremicists is to break the party apart, and I don't
think they will do that. Trump was too dumb for dog whistles, but Ted Cruz will
be happy to bring it all back home.
I don't think there is a question that Trump goes to prison - along with anyone
who was involved in this. Nobody is talking about this now as it will inflame his
base even worse, but once he's out he is fair game. My theory: they resisted
invoking the amendment to remove him immediately because the only way to
make a case was that he was mentally disabled, or the more generous COVID
brain fog. He would have been gone, but he would also get off scott free.
Finishing his term and impeachment means he can be convicted, and all
Republicans can agree that removing his ability to run for office again is a good
thing. He will be a better martyr to them so they can speak of how he was
given a raw deal, but the reality is that taking him out of future elections means
he can't set the agenda nor destroy all competitors and take office like 2016.
Putting Trump in prison will play into the extreme right questioning of
everything Democrats do. But this is so egregious that it's the only solution. We cannot say elected officials are not above the law if we allow someone to
literally attack an entire branch of government to overthrow a free and fair
election. It's too fundamental to the United States. It's so big I don't think
Republicans realize how it has decimated all of their high minded
rationalizations. It's time for Republicans to listen - truly listen, not just wait to
hit talking points again.
I am hoping the ongoing questioning of voter fraud will energize Democrats to
amend actual voter fraud. It all comes down the Democratic ground game - if
we continue to get our voters to come out, we can get the kind of politics that
help the poor and struggling people who have been most devastated by the
pandemic.
And that is the true tragedy of all of this - all of the government is focused on
overturning an election or protecting democracy rather than the pandemic.
The true killer. The real threat. The undeniable science that is being ignored
in favor of election ballot "theories."
The true bipartisanship with be both sides joining to get us beyond the
pandemic.
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Eric Sofer
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Joined: 31 January 2014
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:30pm | IP Logged | 8
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Kevin B. - I think that Trump still can be pardoned - except for the crimes for which he was impeached. He will ALWAYS be impeached for inciting to insurrection.
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Marc Baptiste
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 9
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Kevin,
I, too, believe that Trump can self-pardon himself. The pardon is a plenary power with few limitations attached to it.
And by the way, just because you say he CAN'T self-pardon with such exclamatory force does NOT make it so. If you don't mind I will wait for the Supreme Court of the United States to let me know what they think.
Marc
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 10
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The wording of the constitution is simple when it comes to the presidential power of pardon.
"He shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment."
The clause indicates a single constraint on the presidential power to pardon: in cases of impeachment.
He can pardon any crime against the U.S., but he cannot intervene in cases of impeachment.
There is nothing to indicate a contrary intention regarding the self-pardoning aspect in the language.
Obviously it's up to how the courts interpret it, but I think a reasonable interpretation is he can self-pardon, but he cannot stop an impeachment by pardoning an offense.
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Peter Martin
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 11
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And further to that, remember that section 3, clause 7 of the constitution says that:
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.
The way I see it is, the President's Power to pardon can't help him escape the senate's powers of impeachment (i.e. to remove him from office and disqualify him from future office), but the indictment, trial, judgement and punishment according to law bit could be circumvented by a pardon (at the Federal level, anyway). He has less than a week to give it to himself though -- and he would be admitting guilt if he did.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 July 2006
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Posts: 8786
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| Posted: 14 January 2021 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 12
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He might be able to pardon himself, but some legal experts have said it would only apply to federal crimes. It would have no effect on the investigations going on in New York, until he tries to use the pardon as a defense.
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