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Ronald Joseph
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Joined: 18 April 2011
Location: United States
Posts: 1784
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 3:54pm | IP Logged | 1
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Y'know, when I read the description of this scene in the original post, I immediately pictured it in JB's art style from the classic X-Men/Hellfire Club story.
Seeing an actual page now had the effect of a needle being raked across a record.
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 4:38pm | IP Logged | 2
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So... If this was made prior to Carol Danvers' abduction and MC-induced pregnancy in Avengers 200, and certainly before Rogue wiped her mind and stole her powers in Avengers Annual 10, then... Claremont apparently was just going to have Danvers hate Rogue from the start, with no real reason being necessary. Just "she steals powers. Kill her."
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 6:16pm | IP Logged | 3
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Interesting. I have no facts to bring, but that bit of story does not make sense
as something contemporary with the Hellfire/Black Queen story from X-Men.
Was Ms. Marvel a back-up Black Queen or something? How many superheroes
was Mastermind seducing?
...And Rogue was introduced as a girl in her teens? I'm not sure Michael Golden
was in on that bit of information.
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Rod Collins
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 939
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | 4
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So... If this was made prior to Carol Danvers' abduction and MC-induced pregnancy in Avengers 200, and certainly before Rogue wiped her mind and stole her powers in Avengers Annual 10, then... Claremont apparently was just going to have Danvers hate Rogue from the start, with no real reason being necessary. Just "she steals powers. Kill her."
******
From what's in the issue, it looked like Claremont was planning a showdown between the Brotherhood and the Hellfire Club. Mystique was after Carol Danvers because Destiny's visions showed that she was a threat to Rogue. Mystique had also killed Carol Danvers' lover in the previous issue while in Carol's form, that previous issue being the unreleased issue #24 where Ms Marvel battles Sabretooth. She is trying to find the killers, which leads her into conflict with the Hellfire Club and then is attacked by Avalanche and Pyro.
There was so much crossover that I thought it would be worth asking JB if there were plans to connect the two series. Incidentally, there is a scene where Harry Leland uses his power to force Ms Marvel through a series of floors into the sewer. Obviously a scene that Claremont didn't want to lose. Glad we got the Wolverine version instead, as it plays out a lot stronger.
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Matt Hawes
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 16587
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:14pm | IP Logged | 5
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Mark Haslett wrote:
......And Rogue was introduced as a girl in her teens? I'm not sure Michael Golden
was in on that bit of information... |
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Chris Claremont did intend Rogue to be a teenager. That I recall from old interviews.
I also remember hearing/reading somewhere that when Paul Smith was told Rogue was supposed to be sixteen, his reaction was something like: "Sixty? She doesn't a day over 25." When corrected that it was 16-years, not sixty-years, he reportedly said something like, "Sixteen? There's no way she's a day under 25."
I may be a tad off, as it's been years since I heard that story, but I know that from interviews, yes, Chris Claremont intended Rogue to be a teenager.
I think it's the white stripe and short hair (in her early appearances) that makes her look older. I think it was meant as a sort of New Wave/punk look, though.
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Matt Hawes
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 6
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Mark Haslett wrote:
...I have no facts to bring, but that bit of story does not make sense
as something contemporary with the Hellfire/Black Queen story from X-Men.
Was Ms. Marvel a back-up Black Queen or something? How many superheroes
was Mastermind seducing?... |
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I think you may be misunderstanding (or maybe it's me that is misunderstanding?): The Ms. Marvel story was planned before what happened with Jean Grey in "Uncanny X-Men." Since Claremont didn't get to do what he wanted there with the Hellfire Club, Black Queen, etc., in that title due to its cancellation, he carried over those ideas to the X-Men, changing it up a bit, and having JB's input and influence.
In other words, if "Ms. Marvel" had not been cancelled at that time, it appears the Dark Phoenix story would have been quite different.
Edit to note: "Ms. Marvel" #23 (the final published issue of that series) was cover dated April, 1979. "Uncanny X-Men" #125 was cover dated September, 1979. I believe that issue is where we first meet Jason (Mastermind) Wyngarde.
Edited by Matt Hawes on 11 January 2017 at 8:25pm
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Jim Petersman
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 8:53pm | IP Logged | 7
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"...which would have had a cover date of August 1979, we meet Hellfire Club members Leyland, Pierce and Selene..."
I thought Selene wasn't introduced until the New Mutants in the early 80s? Would this have also been her first appearance? Something feels off here to me.
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David Miller
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 8
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At first I was confused, because I would have thought I'd have heard of it before now if Mike Vosburg co-created the Hellfire Club, Rogue and the new Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.
According to Google, the story presented as #25 was completed by Simon Furman and Mike Gustovich when it was published in 1992, taking up from where Claremont and Vosburg left off.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6746
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 9
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Thanks Matt, I didn't get that.
Is that Vosburg art really from around early 1979? I'm surprised how "on
model" Rogue is and how much the layout and style reminds me of the mid-
80s when everyone seemed to be influenced by Miller/Janson.
Wait, who came up with the name Jason Wyngard? I guess I remember it
being JB-- I'm sure that's why I thought this story must have been after or
during the storyline created in X-Men.
More examples of how Chris Claremont holds onto his ideas, I guess.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:13pm | IP Logged | 10
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I posted at same time as David Miller-- David's post explains a lot for me.
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David Miller
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 11
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The posted page doesn't look or read like a Seventies comic or a Claremont comic, let alone a Seventies Claremont comic. It'd have been an astonishing stylistic leap from the blanket of captions and thought balloons in issues immediately prior to something that would have anticipated Frank Miller.
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Matt Hawes
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Location: United States
Posts: 16587
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| Posted: 11 January 2017 at 9:47pm | IP Logged | 12
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That page definitely reads like a "Claremont" page to me --
"The garb, she is told, of a queen"
"Without hesitation or mercy-- the deed is done."
Does phrasing like that get any more "Claremont"?
The layout is unconventional for a 70s' comic, I agree.That is Vosburg art, though, not Mike Gustovich, so it's from the unpublished comic unless we were lied to by Marvel's editors.
I wonder if the editor of that "Marvel Superheroes" could shed some light on the details?
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