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Mark J. Tomlinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2017 Location: United States Posts: 7
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 11:47am | IP Logged | 1
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I agree it's the policeman's job, and agree he should have done it. His resignation would be very appropriate. When a police shoots a twelve year old with a toy, I'm one of the people who thinks the guy knew he signed up for a risky job and should have been prepared to take a bullet if it meant sparing a child's life. You and I have basic taxpayer expectations.
That's different from dogpiling on a guy for effectively freezing in combat.
I'm probably getting ahead of myself, since as a Florida cop he's probably as dirty as a snake and will perform a barking asshole routine once he finally musters the poor judgement to answer questions on camera. But for the time being as far as I know he's one of the victims of this violence.
I read some doozies on the Forum, and bite my tongue on 99% of them, but David your last couple of posts are at the top of any that I've ever read. Wow, where to start.....
First, I've worked with many policemen, and are good friends with a couple, and frankly I'm really sick and tired of the characterization of them. It's gone on long enough. But that's for another time.... You of course go to the scenario of a cop shooting a Child with a toy. First, and unlike your implication, no police officer EVER wants to murder a child with a toy. But more than that, no officer should ever be expected to "take a bullet". "Basic Taxpayer Expectations"?! Talk about talking tough from behind a keyboard! I know the training they go through, the care they take, and the preparations the go through to try to disarm every encounter with NO ONE getting hurt.
You also initially defend the officer as a victim for freezing and not entering the building when he heard the shots - which as a police officer is indefensible. But I guess defending a Cop bothered you, so you had to take a cheap shot and say he's probably as "dirty as a snake anyway". Of course you have no logical reason for saying that other than your own prejudice, but you had to take your shot anyway so no one sees you as pro-cop.
I talked to a city Police Officer friend this morning. He's embarrassed by the actions of the officer that stood outside the building. Obviously the Florida Sheriff was too when he suspended him without pay, and you could see his disgust when he talked about it. Sorry David, but there's no defense. And those that comment the the Officer would have been "walking into his own execution" against an AR-15 have NO concept of guns, police training, or their capacity for defense......I'm just floored by some of the things people say. At this point I shouldn't be, but damn........ --Mark T
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Bill Collins Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 May 2005 Location: England Posts: 11308
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 2
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Of course,the officer had no wife or children to leave behind, put yourselves in that position, not sitting behind a keyboard, would you commit suicide in the face of overwhelming odds?
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 4:03pm | IP Logged | 3
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I'd like to think I'd die for innocent kids, but nobody knows until they are suddenly faced with a situation. There have been people who never thought they'd risk their life for a complete stranger or to stand up to an armed robber who do, and then say they are as surprised as anyone. People who have been in combat are possibly the least likely to judge another, and some of them suffer problems from PTSD that they blame themselves for sometimes to an extreme.
The peculiarities of this particular shooting aren't as relevant as a 19 year old with a history of problems being able to obtain multiple and high-powered weapons. The problem was not caused by the FBI being fallible or an officer freezing or whatever, or even of there being a gun free school.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 24 February 2018 at 4:04pm
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 7:32pm | IP Logged | 4
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I think a minimum requirement for the officer was to have made some effort to enter the building. To do something.
Yes, it is very easy to sit behind a keyboard and say someone should ideally do this or that, but I think we've all at some point in our lives been given a choice of doing the easy thing that suits us or the riskier, harder thing that is the RIGHT thing.
When kids are being shot and you are the best chance they have for survival, I think making some effort to at least make your presence known, behind cover, would not have been asking for too much.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 7:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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And for the record, I cannot definitively say I would not have simply frozen with fear, had it been me. This is the problem of being faced with such a high grade weapon. I like to think though that I might have been able to muster the willingness to at least announce a security presence in the hope of deterring the shooter.
I would also add, I would give the deputy in question some measure of sympathy. I don't doubt for a second that he wrestled with his fear about going in... I imagine he will relive his failure to do so for the rest of his life.
Edited by Peter Martin on 24 February 2018 at 7:40pm
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3101
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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I suggest an officer like the man who shot Tamir Rice could have delayed shooting long enough to avoid murdering a 12 year; as in so many cases like it, if he had the officer would have survived the incident and so would have Rice. Mark J. Tomlinson rails at my incomprehensible beliefs and jumps to absurd extrapolations while shrilly demanding the deputy who failed at Parkland travel back in time and commit ritual suicide by school shooter, because of the impeccable training he's somehow confident was at play in the great state of Florida and its unimpeachable law enforcement who can be faced down by a teenager and tripled questionable police shootings from 2000 to 2015. He should have acted, but he didn't, and your "concept of guns, police training, or their capacity for defense" demonstrably splattered against the wall of reality last week.
But I'm anti-cop.
So which is it? Is the life of a peace officer worth any number of dead children? Or is it worth a certain number of dead children which the Parkland shooting exceeded?
A bunch of law enforcement are going to take it in the ass over this, and rightly so. However it will be too bad if we let the 2nd Amendment Death Pact Lobby scapegoat their way into obfuscating yet another national conversation about licensing, restrictions and ultimately buy-back and amending the Constitution.
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3101
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 9:07pm | IP Logged | 7
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This is the source of the famous "the Constitution is not a suicide pact" dictum, from Terminiello v. City of Chicago, a 1949 First Amendment case. Arthur Terminiello, a suspended activist priest, was fined $100 because of the protests outside a crazy speech he gave about Communism and Jews. The Supreme Court overturned his conviction, and Justice Robert H. Jackson dissented.
Justice Robert H. Jackson wrote:
This Court has gone far toward accepting the doctrine that civil liberty means the removal of all restraints from these crowds and that all local attempts to maintain order are impairments of the liberty of the citizen. The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the Court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact. |
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We've definitely exceeded the Suicide Pact threshold with the Second Amendment. It needs to be repealed, somehow.
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 8
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" And those that comment the the Officer would have been "walking into his own execution" against an AR-15 have NO concept of guns, police training, or their capacity for defense"
I admit that I am ignorant. Please explain how a police-issue handgun would be an effective "defense" against a semi-automatic rifle.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 11:26pm | IP Logged | 9
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Please explain how a police-issue handgun would be an effective "defense" against a semi-automatic rifle. ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ To be fair, there sits a space between the two options of (1) a sheriff waiting outside as kids are shot inside and (2) using a handgun as a a defence against a semi-automatic rifle.
The school was a sizeable building. Inside was a shooter versus children. The officer risked his own safety by entering, but increased the chance of helping those inside before further help arrived. Staying outside guaranteed his own safety, but did nothing to help those inside.
Between the binary choices of entering or staying outside exist a varying degree of outcomes. It is not as simple as saying if he entered the building he would die.
Edited by Peter Martin on 24 February 2018 at 11:26pm
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 11:28pm | IP Logged | 10
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At the same time, I feel it IS a fair illustration of how a trained person on site with a gun will NOT prevent a shooting incident.
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Mark J. Tomlinson Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 February 2017 Location: United States Posts: 7
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Posted: 24 February 2018 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 11
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" And those that comment the the Officer would have been "walking into his own execution" against an AR-15 have NO concept of guns, police training, or their capacity for defense"
I admit that I am ignorant. Please explain how a police-issue handgun would be an effective "defense" against a semi-automatic rifle
Here's a number of reasons Joe:
1. Police forces don't often issue handguns. Most officers purchase their own. Glock.40 or .45 semi-automatic handguns are very popular for reliability, stopping power,and are typical of what most police will carry (though some will carry an even higher caliber). Both are MORE than powerful enough to stop any shooter with 1 shot. Handgun Magazines also will hold 10-15 rounds typically, and can easily be reloaded in a second by someone with training. AR-15 hold around 22 rounds typically, and are more difficult to reload.
2. People seem to think that just because a caliber of bullet is higher it means people with smaller caliber rounds are completely outgunned or "on a suicide mission". If you hear that it's a sure sign that the person has no idea what they're talking about. For long range a rifle is a better option. A longer barrel makes for more accuracy. But for confined areas, like a school building, a handgun is usually a better option and has sufficient power to kill with 1 shot. A handgun is also easier to maneuver, move with,and often aim. There are countless instances of a trained officer with a handgun taking out a shooter with a rifle. The nut that shot up the Republican Congressmen at baseball practice had a rifle and was shot and killed with a handgun. And that was outside and from a longer range than would be inside a school building.
3. People that aren't familiar with using guns don't understand how difficult it is to hit a target. People that know guns only from movies or TV have NO idea how difficult it is to accurately hit a stationary target, let alone a moving one. Training is everything! Far more important than bullet caliber. I'll take a trained Police shooter with a handgun over a novice with a rifle anytime.
Not sure that adequately explains things, but for those that think a police officer with a handgun wouldn't have had a chance in stopping someone with a rifle, they're sorely mistaken. It appears the officer on the scene was scared. It's sad, and fortunately not at all typical of the vast majority of police officers. They are trained to respond to where the shots are coming from. He could have entered the building, and had a clear shot at the shooter. He could have had cover in the building. Who knows. But he shouldn't have waited outside while an active shooting was taking place. That's like saying a fireman shouldn't enter a building with smoke coming out of it in case there was a raging inferno inside.
Edited by Mark J. Tomlinson on 24 February 2018 at 11:46pm
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 25 February 2018 at 4:53am | IP Logged | 12
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OK much educated, thanks!
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