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Topic: Another Shooting (Florida) Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4789
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 11:56am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

I STILL have not seen a reply from a police officer, so I have to assume that everything we're commenting on is speculation on our part.

David M. you noted that you are "anti-cop", and I'm sure that you have very good reasons for such a choice. Sadly, police - as others in any profession - are human, and vary between good and bad, honorable and despicable, and honest or untrustworthy. I am curious; what alternative would you propose to replace the police force?

I live in Greater Cleveland, so I heard plenty enough about the Tamir Rice situation, and it is a tangled mess that I feel will never achieve a satisfactory resolution. The police officer apparently was not up to police standards, so his judgment was called into question. Tamir Rice had a toy that was extremely similar to the appearance of a real weapon... the orange cap that would be on a toy had been removed, making it resemble a true handgun.

I can only put myself in the place of the police officer; called in on a report of someone waving a gun around callously. Arriving on the scene and telling the suspect to drop the weapon... and instead of it being dropped, having it pointed right at the officer. I'm afraid I would react as the policeman did, and shoot.

I would regret it forever, and I'm told that a lot of police who have to shoot hate it, and require therapy. The majority of peace officers do not want to use their weapons and shoot civilians, I believe. But if there is no time to give a situation critical analysis... well, as noted, I trust a police officer's training in such situations.

The only addendum I have is regarding all the family members and friends who stated that it was just a kid with a toy, and how could anyone find that threatening? I just considered... who thinks it's a good idea to point a weapon at a police officer? What resolution COULD someone expect?

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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 12:13pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Okay, let's hear from the police... Discounting on-line things at sites I've never heard of/didn't exist half a dozen years ago, and only taking recent items from U.S. news media that pre-date the blitz of made-up (possibly Russian) stuff/disinformation... it always comes out that the police themselves want to have to face a lot less advanced weaponry. Maybe they're not 'experts' who know every screw type on every kalashnikov though? I say let's listen to the police!

Warning: not for those who buy that The New York Times, Miami Herald, New Republic or CNN are "hoaxes" or part of a conspiracy.

"Law enforcement leaders fight concealed-carry gun bill"

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/29/politics/gun-control-event/in dex.html

"police chiefs — again — call for assault-weapons ban"

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article201002389.html

"Loose gun laws put police officers at risk"

https://newrepublic.com/article/135006/need-blue-lives-matte r-movementfor-gun-control

"As States Expand Gun Rights, the Police Object"

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/04/us/as-states-expand-gun-r ights-police-join-opposition.html

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 25 February 2018 at 12:14pm
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Mark J. Tomlinson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 February 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 7
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:30pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Since you wanted to hear from the Police.........The National Association of Chiefs of Police does an annual survey, which is well respected in the industry. It polled 20,000 Sheriffs and Chiefs of Police. Some of the questions they answer deal with private citizens carrying firearms, and greatly contradict the anecdotal articles you posted. 
   One interesting result was that 76% believe that “qualified, law-abiding armed citizens help law enforcement reduce violent criminal activity.”

Here's the latest survey from 2016 with results from their site - http://www.nacoponline.org

http://www.nacoponline.org/surveyresults.pd

Another poll was conducted by Policeone.com - a well known police officer information website in 2013. I'm not much of a fan of polls, since I don't know how scientifically based they are. But it's one of the few to be done that polled police respondents.
Those results can be found on this page:

https://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/ 6188462-PoliceOnes-2013-Gun-Policy-Law-Enforcement-Survey-Re sults-Executive-Summary/

Here's a few results from that survey:  
 91% support civilian concealed weapons carry permits 

86% feel that mass shooting casualties could be reduced if an armed citizen were present

81% favor arming properly trained and vetted teachers and administrators in schools.




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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1956
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

That's what they feel and believe, but I'm not sure what that proves.

The only way to truly keep people from getting shot is by removing guns and/or bullets from the equation.
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Robbie Parry
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:43pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Mark, "page not found" for both of your links.

Edited by Robbie Parry on 25 February 2018 at 2:44pm
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Bill Collins
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 26 May 2005
Location: England
Posts: 11308
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

If that's actually what your police officers think,
well...you're in deep deep shit.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 3:21pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Unfortunately the supposed charity group  'National Association of Chiefs of Police' has a history of complaints and a low rating as an actual charitable organization, although it does seem to be actually based in Florida (but 'Swift Boat Veterans For Truth', that lone vet who had a fixation with John Kerry, was also U.S. based).

As far as I know, PoliceOne is some kind of on-line 'virtual training' (whatever that is supposed to be) website. Unofficial stuff again, maybe that George Zimmerman guy took their course and thus was able to handle the teenager 'armed with a sidewalk' so well.

I hope one day soon all these motivated fanatics with their multitude of websites and organizations and foundations of a handful will be laughed out of town. When comes the Canadians shouldn't comment part of the usual treatment? Banana banana banana!!!?
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"If that's actually what your police officers think,
well...you're in deep deep shit."

It really isn't, not even in the deepest south where there are fifteen radio stations carrying Rush Limbaugh (a modern Lord haw-Haw) to zero of NPR or anything much else outside Christian radio. Even most NRA members by far are in support of sane restrictions and screening, not unchecked concealed guns crossing all state lines without permit (to undermine those states with laws others don't like, so much for their supposed dedication to states' rights). Meanwhile you can't get onto an airplane without an hour of pre-screening.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 25 February 2018 at 3:37pm
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Joe Zhang
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12857
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 7:13pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Arming teachers is silly idea. They can be robbed of their guns by students. Hot-tempered teachers might threaten students with guns. Or teachers themselves could end up as murderers. Teachers teach, which is already a huge burden. They are not security guards.   

Ban all guns. The ones who can't live without violence in their lives can live in jail. 


Edited by Joe Zhang on 25 February 2018 at 7:20pm
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Mark J. Tomlinson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 03 February 2017
Location: United States
Posts: 7
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 9:12pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Responding to a few posts at once - then I'm done.  

----That's what they feel and believe, but I'm not sure what that proves.

I was responding to someone that specifically said "Okay, let's hear from the police.."  I don't know what it proves either, but they were looking for Police perspectives so I posted 2 polls from Policemen instead of some anecdotal articles. Believe the results or not, I don't care. Better yet, offer your own survey results from thousands of police officers and sheriffs like I did! 

---The only way to truly keep people from getting shot is by removing guns and/or bullets from the equation.

Well that's a great idea. So we'll undo the second amendment, collect up all the 350 million guns, and keep all guns out of criminal's hands. I'd love to hear your magic, well thought out plan. I'd probably even support it. Please share.

----Unfortunately the supposed charity group  'National Association of Chiefs of Police' has a history of complaints and a low rating as an actual charitable organization, although it does seem to be actually based in Florida (but 'Swift Boat Veterans For Truth', that lone vet who had a fixation with John Kerry, was also U.S. based).

-----As far as I know, PoliceOne is some kind of on-line 'virtual training' (whatever that is supposed to be) website. Unofficial stuff again, maybe that George Zimmerman guy took their course and thus was able to handle the teenager 'armed with a sidewalk' so well.

What do these ramblings have to do, in any remote way, to the results of these polls? The National Association of Chiefs of Police is located in Florida, where the Swiftboats for Veterans was located, so that somehow negates the poll results? Do you have any idea how ridiculous this is? Then you somehow, through your vivid imagination tie George Zimmerman to the other site? 

---Arming teachers is silly idea. They can be robbed of their guns by students. Hot-tempered teachers might threaten students with guns. Or teachers themselves could end up as murderers. Teachers teach, which is already a huge burden. They are not security guards.  

All of these reasons don't just  apply to teachers with a gun Joe. Anyone - Policemen, Security Guards, Hollywood bodyguards, Military members can have a gun stolen, be hot tempered, and potentially murder. I suppose guns would have to be taken from them too. And NO ONE is saying arm ALL teachers. But maybe there are some that are well trained, trusted, and vetted enough to handle and want the responsibility. Maybe not the best idea, but Gun Free Zones certainly don't seem to be working out well either

And JOE, here's a National Review article that contains working links to both poll results I mentioned previously.





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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133458
Posted: 25 February 2018 at 9:27pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

...then I'm done.

•••

Yes, you are.

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Eric Ladd
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 August 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4505
Posted: 26 February 2018 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

A fundamental question about safety that I am having a tough time getting an answer to is; are people safer when everyone has a weapon or when noone has a weapon? Just a silly little philosopical question that gets jumped on by 2nd amendment proponets as some kind of "let's ban all guns" leading question. It also gets a fair number of people dragging in that government will install a dictatorship the moment all weapons are banned from the citizens.

Arming teachers is just ludicrious. As many have noted, if someone can walk onto a military base with a pistol and kill 13 people then what will 20% or even 100% of armed teachers going to do to prevent death? When I think about all the teachers I ever had from kindergarten to my senior year of high school I cannot come up with 20% of them that I can imagine being up to the task of police/teacher.

Personally, I think people should be allowed to own guns, but there should be strict, ownerous and comprehensive regulations. The type of weapon and person should be rigorously vetted and include annual recertifications. I would want laws that leverage the "well regulated" portion of the 2nd amendment to the fullest possible extent. Ideally, I prefer former Cheif Justice Warran Burger's interpretation of the 2nd amendment or even that the amendment has no place on the Bill of Rights.


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