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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 136305
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 1
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I referred to YEAR ONE as a “stealth reboot” at the time.
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Carlos Velasco Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 02 August 2019 Location: Spain Posts: 277
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 9:47am | IP Logged | 2
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I have added a paragraph to my message in the previous page, because I forgot to mention the 1989 movie:
QUOTE:
| Then, in late 1989, Tim Burton's Batman happened. I was 9, but the movie was PG13. Burton tried to promote the movie as safe for children and this appeared in the news, so my mum decided to take me to the cinemas to watch it with me. It wasn't nearly as violent as some of the comics I had already read in the previous year, but it was a very exciting experience, especially with the bat-mania all around, from music videos to trading card stickers (I used to collect those). |
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I am glad I am not the only one who dislikes Robin. I believe Robin also works better without Batman (see the Teen Titans). By the way, for Robin fans around here: The new TV series Titans has two Robins fighting each other. It's one of the main themes in season 2. I find the series entertainment but I feel guilty, it has that modern take on superheroes with every single character sad or angry.
Edited by Carlos Velasco on 23 September 2019 at 12:31pm
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1586
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 12:58pm | IP Logged | 3
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Robin is a conundrum for me.
I never fully liked him, and it makes little sense when you think about it for Batman to let a teenager fight very dangerous criminals alongside him.
But, I guess he has a role to play in making the Batman "world" less grim because of the differences in their personalities.
My preferred version is the O'Neill/Adams "college" Robin. Although it breaks the cardinal rule of aging him, I find him more tolerable if he has an independent life and only comes to the Batcave to work with Batman from time to time.
The rest of the ludicrously large "Batman Family" I don't care for at all... they could disappear tomorrow and I wouldn't miss them.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 136305
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 4
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Dick was aged and sent off to college as a way of restoring Batman to being a solo character. Killing him was not considered an option in those simpler, less bloodthirsty times. Typical for DC, no thought was given to the impact this would have on all the other characters. Along with Robin the rest of the Titans suddenly shifted from one end of their teen years to the other. And the adult characters “gained” an equal number of years. (One of the considerations behind CRISIS. “Characters have become too old!!” Well whose fault was that?!?!?)
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7585
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 1:27pm | IP Logged | 5
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Probably would have been easier to have Dick injured on a case, so that Batman decides "Okay, that's enough of me endangering this kid. I'm going to work alone and he's going off to boarding school."
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Jason Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 August 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 1213
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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"…I'm the goddamn Batman!"•• Where is the greater crime? That Frank did this, that DC allowed it... or that so many "fans" raced to embrace it?
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"Who is the more foolish?...The fool or the fool who follows it?"
Sorry. Couldn't help myself.
I think Batman, like a lot of characters who exist for many many years continously, has fallen prey to writers being bored or just not imaginative/talented enough to write good stories that are actually focused on him. And so they take perhaps the lazy option of extending his 'Bat Family' time and time again. Writing about those characters in his world instead.
For many years, I thought Spider-Man was a better example of a 'loner' character. But in the last decade or so, I think we've seen the same thing happen with him. (I mean just how many variations are there on Spider-Woman/Spider Girl now? Plus he even has his own junior version in Miles now too.)
But getting back to Batman, I suppose the Robins and their history are just too entrenched into the mythos now. So many comic readers are now too attached to them as a part of that world, that I doubt it's even possible to get a solo Batman now. (Or at least not for very long.)
I see this as a problem that the field of comics is almost unique in having. In that there are no endings for characters, when you're committed to keep their adventures ongoing for....well now 80 years in Batman's case. I mean it's not like you would ever have a tv or film character be depicted in relatively the same continuity for that amount of time. Maybe we should be fixing endings for comic characters, given the way the generation of readership is supposed to change every so often? But I guess the boats already sailed on that one.
Edited by Jason Scott on 23 September 2019 at 5:02pm
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17827
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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I enjoy Batman stories with and without Robin. The inclusion of the Boy Wonder (and Bucky) in BATMAN & CAPTAIN AMERICA added to my enjoyment of the tale, and that comic book may be my favorite single "issue" of all time!
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1586
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 8
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I see this as a problem that the field of comics is almost unique in having.
It is unique indeed. I proposed a "solution" in some other thread here not long ago that the characters should only be written and drawn by their original creators, ending the story the way they feel like or, well, when they died themselves.
But it's just a thought experiment obviously, that ship has sailed a long time ago as you've said. And precisely Batman would get one of the rawest deals if that were they way things worked.
Another possible solution is to change the periodicity and format. More like european "albums". Speaking for myself, if I could get "just" one or two GOOD Batman stories a year, I'd be a happy camper. I haven't felt the need to buy 4 or 5 Batman comics a month for quite some time now, but maybe that's just me.
Maybe we should be fixing endings for comic characters, given the way the generation of readership is supposed to change every so often?
"Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" was supposed to be the "ending" for the classic Superman and JB' run to be the new Superman. I thought of it as a good solution at the time but, as we've said in this thread already, Classic Superman started creeping his way back...
But getting back to Batman, I suppose the Robins and their history are just too entrenched into the mythos now.
By my calculations there have been now 4 official Robins and two of them died at some point.
Not to get too Wertham-y but this single billionaire playboy's custom of taking in new teenage boy wards frequently and some of them mysteriously disappearing sure would raise some questions...
I know, I know, time to stop reading comics when you start to think like that, but in this case I think it is kinda too much "suspension of disbelief" to ask for.
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Rick Whiting Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Posts: 2296
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| Posted: 23 September 2019 at 6:34pm | IP Logged | 9
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So MAN OF STEEL was savaged in some quarters for “changing everything,” while YEAR ONE was applauded for taking all the jumbled pieces of Batman’s history and “making sense” of them
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It wouldn't surprise me if the same fans who were savaging MOS were also the same elitist older elitist fans who were praising B:YO. These older elitist readers think of themselves as being "sophisticated" and they think that superhero comics need to be made more "mature" and "sophisticated" (translation "more grim n' gritty and less suitable for all ages") in order to appeal to their more adult tastes and to show their non comic readers how 'cool" and "adult" superhero comics are. Miller, at that time was considered the cool,hip,and edgy comic book creator who made mature comics for older sophisticated readers and who had his comics talked about in cool hip music magazines like Rolling Stone while JB was the "staunch traditionalist" who gets his comics talked about in boring old people magazines like Time Magazine. So these elitist readers are hypocrites who will overlook or give Miller a pass for doing certain things while at the same time raking JB over the coals and wrongly accusing him of doing the same things that Miller was doing. This kind of elitist hypocrisy also extends to fans turned pro.
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Jason Scott Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 06 August 2012 Location: Scotland Posts: 1213
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| Posted: 25 September 2019 at 8:48pm | IP Logged | 10
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Not to get too Wertham-y but this single billionaire playboy's custom of taking in new teenage boy wards frequently and some of them mysteriously disappearing sure would raise some questions...
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Haha! A sad reflection of the cynical times we now live in. But oh yes, it certainly would!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 136305
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| Posted: 26 September 2019 at 6:56am | IP Logged | 11
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In many ways, the Death of Phoenix can be blamed directly for this pall that has fallen across comics. As I noted before, when DC wanted to restore Batman to his solo status, in the Seventies, they sent Dick off to college. Killing him was, I'm sure, not even a consideration. (They'd learned, maybe, from their mistake of killing Alfred.)The Death of Phoenix made it COOOOL to kill superheroes, and instead of being imponderable, death became pretty much the ONLY option. (And, yes, I must offer up a mea culpa here, too, since I killed Guardian, instead of simply retiring him.)
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Eric Sofer Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 4759
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| Posted: 26 September 2019 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 12
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Part of the Robin issue was, I think, merchandising. Batman had been "Batman with Robin the Boy Wonder" for so long that Robin had his own logo, his own series, his own action figures... too much to sweep under the rug by DC*.
Had DC not had a built-in solution to make Batman a solo act again, I'd have agreed that college was an acceptable (if not desirable solution.) But really, all that was needed was a simple statement from Dick that he'd learned so much from Bruce... but he couldn't learn how to be a leader while working with him. Dick would leave to be the full time leader of the Teen Titans. No mention of age required. When sales merited, a team up of Batman and Robin and the Teen Titans could be arranged. I think this a simple solution, and even make Robin's participation more important. I mean, how worried could we get for the Boy Wonder when we knew that in two weeks he'd be appearing in Teen Titans again... sort of like Superboy in the Legion.
One other item... maybe we don't have to consider Batman a loner.140-odd issues of Brave and the Bold, and even more of World's Finest, suggested that Batman didn't like working solo all the time.
*I am reminded of a sequence in the Fantastic Four where Ben is cleaning up after another fight at the Baxter Building, and he has a pile of Kirby machinery in a pile on the floor. He tears open what is apparently the top level of floor, shoves all of it under, and then stomps it flat. Hilarious stuff, even if entirely implausible. Just a little non-sequitur that came to mind...
Edited by Eric Sofer on 27 September 2019 at 8:25am
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