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Shawn Kane Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 November 2010 Location: United States Posts: 3239
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 7:20am | IP Logged | 1
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I consider his first Avengers run one of the best Avengers runs ever. It's funny how people view certain eras of comics. I was having a discussion the other day with a guy close to my age (40ish) who started reading the Avengers when Bendis took over.
He read the 90's Harras run originally and wanted to read the Avengers again. He mentioned that the guys at my LCS mentioned Thomas, Englehart, Shooter, and Stern's runs as other issues he might like. He told me that he was gonna pass because the Busiek/Perez run was one that he tried out and he said it felt "cheesy" and he figured older runs that inspired that one wouldn't be to his taste.
So while I could say that the 90's era of the mega crossover and Avengers wearing leather jackets doesn't really feel very Avenger-y to me and I certainly don't see the Bendis era as anything special, it's all personal preference. I can say that reading those Shooter Avengers issues as a kid (via my older brother's subscription) made me a lifelong Avengers fan. Discovering the earlier runs thanks to comic book shops and flea markets and eventually buying the Stern run myself shows that there's something for everyone. Even if we don't agree over what was the best.
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7778
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 9:57am | IP Logged | 2
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There was stuff Shooter wrote at Marvel that I enjoyed.
But he clearly let his ego get in the way of later stories and I didn't enjoy them as much, Secret Wars I cannot fathom what anyone saw in that. And that for the most part, the changes were dismissed within a couple of issues after everyone got back, so SW still had months to go and the only lasting changes really seemed to be Thing on planet/She-Hulk on FF Spider-man's black costume kitty and Peter split
I mean, Iron Man literally removed his armour enhancements within a few panels.
Now, I did enjoy early Valiant and the world building that went into those issues. The first UNITY I really enjoyed and was shocked that he was gone by the end of it - Valiant never reached that quality again for me.
Dark Tower comics never got to that level for me either.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15938
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:07am | IP Logged | 3
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James Woodcock wrote:
And that for the most part, the changes were dismissed within a couple of issues after everyone got back, so SW still had months to go and the only lasting changes really seemed to be Thing on planet/She-Hulk on FF
Spider-man's black costume
Kitty and Peter split
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But those were significant changes, right?
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:12am | IP Logged | 4
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James,
I was a tender 13 year old when Secret Wars hit the stands and though you might not have liked it, I most certainly can tell you why it was a HUGE hit with me and ALL my friends: at that point we weren't yet being treated to a never ending dose of major company-wide crossovers and with Secret Wars you had most of Marvel's major heroes all teamed up in fist-pounding action against most of Marvel's major villains! All nicely wrapped-up with cross-over issues in all your favorite (and not so favorite titles) that you just HAD to have! All with a brand-new omnipotent cosmic entity who was literally more powerful than ANYONE or ANYTHING in the ENTIRE Marvel Universe.
It's not hard to fathom what anyone saw in it, it's just hard to fathom what took Marvel so damn long!!
Marc
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8116
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:15am | IP Logged | 5
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"Kitty and Peter split"
--
That has to be the longest-held consequence of SW. That lasted for about 20 years in publication time!
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:21am | IP Logged | 6
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Haven't Peter and Kitty gotten back together, albeit briefly a time or two since Secret Wars.
LONGEST-held consequence of Secret Wars, Vinny? I disagree, for me it there is no doubt - the clear winner and still champion: the black Spider-Man alien symbiote costume!!
Edited by Marc Baptiste on 05 April 2021 at 10:27am
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12702
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:22am | IP Logged | 7
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Jim Shooter was a good writer in terms of his ability to compose structure, pacing, plotting, dialogue, a lot of the basics (and this is hardly trivial) -- but, I mostly just didn't like the actual stories he chose to tell.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8116
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 10:53am | IP Logged | 8
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"LONGEST-held consequence of Secret Wars, Vinny? I disagree, for me it there is no doubt - the clear winner and still champion: the black Spider-Man alien symbiote costume!! "
Well, in that it ultimately lead to the creation of a new arch-villain, and Spider-Man occasionally wearing a non-symbiote version over the years when he needed a boost in sales, sure. But he had already ceased wearing it by the time SECRET WARS #8 was released!
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Ed Fahey Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 07 March 2005 Location: United States Posts: 279
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 12:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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Several early Shooter Avenger stories are still among my favorites - his first Ultron storyline and his What If? stories leap to mind. Especially as they were written in the 70's and were actual true super hero stories, something that was a bit scarce in those years.
And while I'm no fan of Secret Wars I do credit Shooter with writing an on model monarch Dr. Doom there, a character only a few writers seem to know how to handle properly. His later stuff I'm just not familiar with.
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Marc Baptiste Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 3655
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 1:38pm | IP Logged | 10
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Vinny,
I gotcha! Yes, I was definitely counting Venom and his endless "progeny."
Marc
Edited by Marc Baptiste on 05 April 2021 at 1:39pm
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 1:59pm | IP Logged | 11
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Outside of the three stints on Legion Of Super-Heroes I can't say I hold anything else he's written very highly. Some things started off well but then sort of fizzled away which was the whole Korvac thing for me, and maybe there was a Steve Gerber influence in him having them take a city bus to get out to the suburbs to find him? I'm not a fan of Gerber's so maybe that's why the whole things wound up as something of a joke to me after quite a number of issues and a couple annuals build-up? Yeah, I always wanted to see the mightiest heroes on regular transit to go and face off with a guy who has the power to erase the universe in his tennis shorts. And then it was all some kind second-coming of Jesus story where humanity was found not worthy? Or Moondragon wasn't?
Having Peter Parker later wear a plain version of the B&W living symbiotic costume makes about as much sense as Jean Grey separate from the whole Phoenix thing decide to take up the name and costume anyway... what the..?! Not that either of those can be laid at Mr. Shooter's door. I also didn't see why that second Spider-Woman also had the black and white costume... I must've missed her origin.
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Vinny Valenti Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 8116
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Posted: 05 April 2021 at 2:22pm | IP Logged | 12
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Rebecca,
That Spider-Woman had the costume "first". It was implied that the design subconsciously influenced Spider-Man when he attemped to have his costume repaired, but ended up with the black costume instead.
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