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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 865
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 7:06pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

In fairness, I should point out that Titus was not admitting to government corruption.  She reasoned that many prosecutions would be frivolous and politically motivated; and these would consume a huge amount of time and government resources, which would prevent the elected officials from being able to focus on doing their jobs.

Edited by John Wickett on 16 August 2022 at 7:07pm
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4638
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 8:06pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

 John Wickett wrote:
Clinton did exactly what Trump has been accused of doing, but her home wasn't raided by the FBI, and she was never prosecuted.

This statement I really have a problem with.  You seem to be implying that Clinton and Trump have been treated differently by the FBI for political reasons.  There is ZERO evidence of this, and in fact it's extremely unlikely, given who is running the FBI and the culture at the Bureau.  It's the kind of charge that should only be made if there is genuine evidence supporting it.

There's a very simple reason Clinton's home was not raided by the FBI:  they did not believe there was evidence there that was being withheld from them.  Period.  One notable way in which the Clinton and Trump situations are different is that the latter involves physical documents in cardboard boxes, and the former does not.  If the FBI had believed there was any actual physical evidence being withheld from them sitting in Clinton's home, they would have obtained a warrant and searched her home.

As to the claim that what Clinton and Trump did was "exactly" the same, that's certainly not something anyone can determine without knowing exactly what was in Clinton's emails and exactly what is in the boxes in Trump's home. 

It's true that Clinton was never prosecuted.  It's also true that Trump has not been prosecuted either, and my opinion is that it's extremely unlikely he will be for any crimes related to these documents.  He will likely employ the same excuses as Clinton (negligence/carelessness/ignorance) and that will be sufficient.  The only way he will be prosecuted would be if evidence emerges that he intentionally took these documents for a specific illegal purpose, in which case the situation would be notably different than the Clinton case.

It sickens me to see non-partisan institutions like the FBI attacked and undermined without any evidence, as this sort of thing poses a huge threat to the stability of America.  If you destroy faith in the institutions, the system is going to collapse.
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Conrad Teves
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Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 9:09pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Jason>>He will likely employ the same excuses as Clinton (negligence/carelessness/ignorance) and that will be sufficient. <<

What if there's evidence he sold the info?  Why else would he take it *after* he left office?  Is anyone suggesting he just had a lot of intellectual curiosity about how boosted fission weapons work?  His "preparing for work" claim is ridiculous considering what they had to do to the PDB to keep his attention.

I would be astonished if we have even came close to the bottom of his malfeasance here. 
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4638
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 9:18pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
What if there's evidence he sold the info?
Well yeah, that would fall into my qualifier "if evidence emerges that he intentionally took the documents for a specific illegal purpose."  I think he would be prosecuted then.  But I think it's unlikely they will find enough evidence to make such a charge. 
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Conrad Teves
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Joined: 28 January 2014
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Posted: 16 August 2022 at 9:28pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Jason>>Well yeah, that would fall into my qualifier "if evidence emerges that he intentionally took the documents for a specific illegal purpose." 

Reference to USC 719  is on the Warrant.  They had probable cause enough to get a Trump-appointed judge to sign off on it.  I think he's in serious trouble.  If it were anybody else, they probably would be behind bars right now.
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Jonathan A. Dowdell
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Joined: 17 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 431
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

One thing to remember about Clinton's emails and email server -- as I remember it -- it was the New York Times and the Washington Post that broke those stories about her mismanagement of "Top Secret" information. Not the government or the opposition.  
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 865
Posted: 16 August 2022 at 9:36pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"You seem to be implying that Clinton and Trump have been treated differently by the FBI for political reasons."

Certainly not my intent. If there was preferential treatment for Clinton, I would fault the DOJ, rather than the FBI.  

"As to the claim that what Clinton and Trump did was "exactly" the same, that's certainly not something anyone can determine without knowing exactly what was in Clinton's emails and exactly what is in the boxes in Trump's home."

Trump has been accused of removing documents that belong to the government, including some documents that are classified; possibly at a very high level.  That is exactly what Clinton did. Whether the documents were electronic or hard copies really doesn't make a difference when assessing the potential criminality of what they did.

I agree the precise contents of the documents being sought are unknown, but in terms of criminality, it is the level of classification, and the way the documents were handled that matters; not the specific content. 

"One notable way in which the Clinton and Trump situations are different is that the latter involves physical documents in cardboard boxes, and the former does not." 

You're right. The relevant question now is whether the documents were being withheld from the FBI.  Trump and his lawyers claim they were cooperating with the investigation, and the DOJ/FBI had an open invitation to retrieve any documents they wanted. 

The DOJ was in the same position with regard to Clinton and members of her team, who were suspected of having classified documents on their personal computers.  Rather than direct the FBI to obtain search warrants for the computers, the DOJ negotiated with those individuals (after granting them criminal immunity).

Having said that, my point was not that Clinton received favorable treatment.  Like you, I believe Trump will not be charged, so in the way that matters most, both will have been treated the same.

My point was that even if  Clinton, or any of the others Trump has pointed to, were treated differently, those differences are not a valid defense against any crimes he could be accused of.  




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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 17 August 2022 at 12:11am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I never said Clinton didn't do anything wrong. If you can't get that right there's no discussion to be had.

They talk of Trump derangement syndrome, it's really been Hilary or Clintons or Obama derangements I've seen! They talk of conspiracies... as if Trump, Giuliani, Flynn, Bannon, Jones etc. aren't an obvious effing conspiracy, and still on the loose. Again, learn Karl Rove 101; always attack your 'enemy' with what you are most guilty of (think Bush Jr. who didn't even serve his get-out-of-Vietnam service properly while 'Swiftfboat Veterans For Truth', one guy, attacked John Kerry who did serve in Vietnam) and you will be well ahead on understanding what these creeps have been doing the last half dozen years and that is not entertaining when you have a grasp on reality. I would not even lump Bore-us-all Johnson in that class, I think more highly of even that Eton alumni that would play The Jam song like it's a boostering anthem. Hello hooray, what a fine day, now he's on his way...

There have got to be charges, failure yet again is just not worth imagining. They'll have to investigate his connections to all the current threats against the FBI later, time is definitely of the essence.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 17 August 2022 at 12:28am | IP Logged | 9 post reply


 QUOTE:
in the way that matters most, both will have been treated the same.


Still not even remotely cognizant of the reality of how many times Ms. Clinton was made to answer for her actual minuscule misdeeds and errors, like her or hate her, and that is the truth. The vast majority of the rest of it genuinely is hyped up b.s. from the same miserable crowd behind the pizza parlor child sex blood-drinking ring she was supposed to be the leader of. Why should anyone have to put up with that level of crap? Did anyone take a photo of Trump and put it on the front page of a newspaper claiming he was at death's door to be seen at every supermarket check-out while people were voting? Give me break on this equality, there is a grand canyon between the two, nothing at all in common, go watch his totally insane 'debates' with her that nobody had ever seen the likes of before and I hope never has to again.

Yes, lots and lots of smoke... almost all unconnected to Hilary Clinton's actual actions, smoke is not evidence, and to use it still to gain Trump any further weaseling room out of accountability for his long list of deliberate and damaging actions, which he's already had more of a pass for than anyone at that level at least since Andrew Johnson right after the Civil War, it's pretty sick in my opinion. Don't want to hear about it then don't bring her up and into it as trump wants. I'd rather look at how Biden deserves and needs backing right now! And Garland probably too. Because despite Trump they are not all bad, not all corrupt, and spreading that kind of defeatism is the best applause for Trump and his divide and conquer attempts still ongoing. Definitely take "Sleepy" Joe over any number of Republican ass-kissing sycophant hypocrites. Nancy Pelosi turns out to have much bigger balls defying fascist dictators other openly admire, so why not stop 'being with stupid' by pretending to be against him while buying into exaggerated claims and trashing the few still capable of speaking out with intelligence and reality, and will stand up to do the right thing.

I do need to admit to something I did wrong: it was Powell who was the predecessor to Clinton that had most of the same set up she was supposed to have been so guilty of, and I did write Rice. She was not charged with anything because as Comey put it after all the evidence was weighed and she was grilled obsessively and repetitiously, there was just "carelessness", which he himself certainly showed making known the things he made known near an important, the most important, election... and about one candidate and not the other who was being investigated for Russian connections among other things like his debts. And as for the whole to 'blame' for Benghazi b.s., aside from the terrorists who attacked there, why not ask all the Republicans who slashed the security budgets for all U.S. embassies leading up to it?

Failure at this time and you can expect a lot more phony 'trumped' up investigations with loads of smoke-rhetoric and mud with almost no substance in future while important ones for real and deliberate misconduct will get swept under a rug for a load of born on third base act like they hit a triple frauds or pretend others are anywhere near as crooked and incompetent as they have been.

My last post on this I'm pretty sure. It's all been said.

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 17 August 2022 at 5:46am
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Kevin Brown
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Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 8984
Posted: 17 August 2022 at 2:09pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

That is exactly what Clinton did. 

************************

No it's not.  And to even imply that's the case is just feeding into the lies you've been fed.

He physically removed classified documents which is wholly against the law. Clinton never did this, not even via email. Stop perpetuating the lies.
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Greg McPhee
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Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 5092
Posted: 17 August 2022 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/17/liz-cheney-p resident-2024-trump-republican-primary-defeat

This will be interesting. Poor Don will get so heated about this he'll spend all of his time trying to attack Liz.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2230
Posted: 17 August 2022 at 3:24pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

"It's mine, not theirs."  Link

Apparently Trump was under the delusion that he owned government documents.  Any scrap of paper (even the ones he ate or flushed down the toilet) are US Government property.  Also, there's your USC 1519 violation.
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