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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133461
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 2:42pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Yep. Only you. On the entire planet. Seven and a half billion people. Only you.
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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12746
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

In today's NYTimes, a variety of theories about why Trump held onto those documents, concluding with: 

<< It was “sort of whatever he wants to grab for whatever reason,” Mr. Bolton said. “He may not even fully appreciate” precisely why he did certain things. >>

Indeed.
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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15973
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 3:36pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

There is something both repulsive and fascinating about Trump in how he just doesn't seem to be wired like a normal human being. Like the lizard part of his brain has the upper hand, almost Hydian in his cunning and lack of planning, unfettered by common morality.
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 865
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"JEEZZZZZ.... Last I checked, Hillary Clinton did NOT have followers storm the Capitol OR actively putting our country's democracy at risk!!"

Agreed.  But we were talking specifically about the handling of documents, which led to the Mar-a-Lago search.  Jan 25 is a completely separate matter.

If we're looking at the totality of everything they've both ever done, there's no comparison.  Trump is worse by far.

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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 865
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

IMO, This is not quite as clear cut as the author of the article suggests

"Berger pleaded guilty to a violation of 18 U.S.C. §1924, the law against possessing government documents you shouldn’t have."

Berger cut a deal.  Here are the facts he admitted to in the plea agreement:

 - Using his security clearance, Berger accessed classified documents at the National Archive.
 - Berger concealed and removed 5 classified documents.
 - At his apartment, Berger destroyed 3 of the documents.
 - When contacted by the National Archive after they noticed the documents were missing, Berger lied about having removed them, and claimed he had merely "misfiled" them at the Archive.

Berger later returned the remaining two documents and admitted what he had done, but by that time he'd been caught.  

These facts are enough to establish all of the elements of 18 USC 2071, and possibly Section 1519.  He could easily have been charged with violating statutes other than Section 1924.  All of these statutes share common elements.

"Hillary was never charged but the allegations against her also revolved around §1924."

That is absolutely correct, but again, based on the factual allegations against Hilary, a number of statutes could have been used as the basis of the investigation.   

For example, all that is required to prove a violation of 18 USC 2071 is that the accused removed or destroyed a government record. That definition is easily broad enough to include any work related e-mail.  The document doesn't even have to be classified.

The difference between Sections 1924 and 2071 is that 1924 addresses removal of documents, whereas 2071 addresses removal or destruction.  However, since Clinton was accused of deleting electronic records, she could potentially have been charged with either.

Section 1519 contains one additional element- that the removal or destruction of a document was done with the intent to impede, obstruct, or influence an investigation.

Here, investigators could have chosen to use that statute, because the accusation was that some e-mails were deleted that pertained to Benghazi, for the purpose of covering up information relevant to that investigation.

Let me pause here to clarify that I'm not suggesting Clinton was guilty of this. Thats a whole other topic.  What we're comparing are accusations, and how they were investigated.  As you pointed out, she was never charged.  And so far, Trump has not been charged.  

Among the statutes you referenced,18 USC 793 is the one that is potentially the most meaningfully different from 18 USC 1924, in that most of the provisions of that statute involve the transmission of classified information to a third party in a way that injures the United States, or gives an advantage to another country.

But some subsections don't go that far.  For example, a person violates 18 USC 793(e) if he "willfully retains" any document which "could be used to the injury of the United States" regardless of whether the document was actually shared with any third party.

Since the Court has not revealed the supporting affidavit attached to the Trump search warrant, we don't know what Trump could be accused of with regard to Section 793, and we probably won't know for quite some time. 

Similarly, its hard to say whether this was ever a potential charge with regard to Clinton, because we still don't know (and probably never will know) what was in the e-mails that were classified as Top Secret Special Access.  




Edited by John Wickett on 18 August 2022 at 5:45pm
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 6:37pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

This is it, if this guy and these people behind him are not stopped now, near the last possible time for it, they are simply not stopped and will go further and further. Even then there are a lot of crooked extreme actors in various states doing the things loudly proclaimed by themselves as being what the other 'side' has been guilty of (and found not be multiple times over) since before the 2016 election who also will need to be carefully watched and stopped from overriding electors, voiding the electoral college votes or who knows what else having already done a lot via electoral roles, re-districting, striking down voting by mail or at drop boxes, partisan 'scrutineers' there simply to intimidate, and provisional balloting people that have never had an issue voting before based on a technicality and their affiliation. Like I said, it's a long way back.

One thing I am not understanding right now is, if the DOJ is against unsealing something what else could possibly matter? Aren't judges part of the same justice system? A lot could be done to ensure moderate less politically extreme judges. You might not get a Ruth Bader-Ginsberg but you also wouldn't get a huge swath of extreme religious and other far right type actors in robes. Obama picked a moderate conservative judge who was not even allowed to be heard... you could see the kind of 'conservatives' they wanted to force through right then.

(edited only to correct an 'and' plus add a comma)

Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 19 August 2022 at 12:45am
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 865
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 7:11pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

"One thing I am not understanding right now is, if the DOJ is against unsealing something what else could possibly matter?"

I don't think releasing the entire document is realistically on the table.  The judge is likely trying to decide whether there is any portion that could be released without compromising the investigation.

We'll likely get a very heavily redacted version that doesn't really tell us anything that hasn't already been revealed in the actual warrant.




Edited by John Wickett on 18 August 2022 at 7:12pm
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3415
Posted: 18 August 2022 at 7:25pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

The main problem with comparing any other public figure on a case-by-case basis with some particular thing Trump has done in a given week is that you'll always be able to find some small thing that - if you squint hard enough - can give you a half-convincing 'whatabout' card to play. So Trump is always allowed to skate by by his party and media enablers. And by and by and by, until he's somehow allowed to take the nomination again, and the White House, again.

But Trump isn't just the latest ethical morass he's dropped his fat ass into during one news cycle; he's an accumulated total of every thing he's done outside of the norm since he first stepped on that escalator back in 2015.  He's literally the elephant the blind men are trying to describe in fragments.  Engaging in any type of discussion that doesn't begin and end with the fact that he's a singularly terrible man and a genuine fascist as a political leader misses the point of him entirely.


Edited by Dave Kopperman on 18 August 2022 at 7:26pm
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 19 August 2022 at 12:51am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I saw the news about the Trump CFO pleading guilty on 15 tax fraud counts and getting five months plus almost two mill in fines. It hurts to see the minions held to account while their employer/leader is considered "too risky" to go after. Seems far riskier to not, and where has it gotten everyone else but into further risk? Perhaps he would like to annex the Sudetenland?

I've had possibly the most horrendous day yesterday and today doing lab tests. I probably should become more of a drop out on politics myself for awhile due to health. Another quiver in the arsenal; simply wearing people out! :^(
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Eric Russ
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 March 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 2006
Posted: 19 August 2022 at 7:48am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

^^^Good vibes and thoughts coming your way, Rebecca^^^



Edited by Eric Russ on 19 August 2022 at 7:48am
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Mark Waldman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 August 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 1273
Posted: 19 August 2022 at 7:46pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

A lifetime criminal and reality show con man/mafia don, let's hope this ends right. When you think about Trump's criminal reign it's hard to get a grasp on everything he's done, which seems to be his point - keep them so off guard with so many crimes happening, they can't focus on any one of them. From election fraud and false information to inciting an insurrection to treason to theft to tax evasion, it just seems, well criminal not to have him in a cell, without orange bronzer and hair regimen to pretty him up. Yesterday's news with his CFO would otherwise be a massive story, nowadays, barely a blip. Hoping all this blows up in Trump, his kids, his GOP co conspirators and right wing media's faces.
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Brian Floyd
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8628
Posted: 23 August 2022 at 1:29am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Apparently Trump is going to represent himself in the case of the Mar-a-Lago search and documents recovery, because he can't find anyone willing to represent him.

That's what happens when you have a reputation for completely ignoring your lawyers' advice and not paying them.....
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