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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 1:45am | IP Logged | 1
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Greg: in the interests of substantiating what you are saying about alleged passing on/selling of nuclear secrets, perhaps you could be kind and post a link to one of the sources to which you refer?
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James Woodcock Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7822
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 4:52am | IP Logged | 2
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Beyond his usual delay till the cows come home tactics, which he does seem to be trying to employ in this case, I do not see a way out for Trump here.
As mentioned, some of these documents were not even supposed to be viewed outside of a secure room, let alone removed from the facility.
He didn’t go through the declassification process, relying on his ego fuelled view of ‘I can declassify what I want & the rules don’t apply to me’, which is kind of a school yard mentality & just won’t wash in law.
Many news outlets are stating the nuclear & human intel documemts - but that might be bottom feeding where one outlet states something & the rest just refer to that one as a source - so it’s still one source really.
But. If all this really is the case, I cannot see how he avoids a conviction for treason. And thus, I can’t see how his supporters would accept that.
Or who knows? Maybe, just maybe, the scales will fall from their eyes & they will see him for the anti-Christ (& I use that term deliberately as many right wing Christians fall over themselves to accept his terrible & deplorable actions/attitudes) that he really is.
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Geoffrey Langford Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 December 2013 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 235
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 10:46am | IP Logged | 3
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All that will come of this is....nothing. All Presidents and Senators and Congressmen/women have taken "classified" documents after their time in office ends. None of these people will want to be subpoenaed to testify - hence this will all blow away after they've muddied the guy up a bit. If you think any differently, you're just fooling yourself.
I was chatting with a lawyer friend about this and I proposed the situation where Trump strikes a deal to end it all - if he gives up ALL of his security clearance from this point forward, agreeing to never hold one again -- hence ending any chance of him ever being President again AND ever being an in-room advisor to anyone in power.
Maybe that's the left's pay here...?
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Wallace Sellars Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 17700
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 12:54pm | IP Logged | 4
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QUOTE:
All Presidents and Senators and Congressmen/women have taken "classified" documents after their time in office ends. |
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Fascinating. The articles I have read indicated this was not the case. What is the source of your information? I am interested in reading more.
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Brian Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004 Location: United States Posts: 31230
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 2:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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Indeed, it is illegal for them to do so.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 4:14pm | IP Logged | 6
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Peter: But neither, on the face of it, was Hillary's possession of classified documents on a non-secure server. The 'lock her up' argument was unpersuasive there for similar reasons to why I find it unpersuasive (as yet with the currently available information) here.
***
The two situations are not comparable. There was no law against what Hillary was doing with a private server; Colin Powell had done it himself, IIRC. Extensive (indeed, exhaustive) investigations proved there was no security breach and although her handling of a SMALL amount of classified info was "negligent," there was no deliberate malfeasance.
There is quite definitely law against what Trump has done and the penalties are spelled out for felonies. The case (further) appears to be open and shut. His fingerprints are on the documents; he was told repeatedly he was not allowed to have them in his possession. A good prosecutor would put this away in an afternoon.
In the end, it doesn't matter if the public is persuaded by available information or not. The law has absolutely been broken. The only issue is what charges DOJ might select upon which to indict Trump and when.
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Andrew Bitner Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 June 2004 Location: United States Posts: 7526
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 4:18pm | IP Logged | 7
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Geoffrey: I proposed the situation where Trump strikes a deal to end it all - if he gives up ALL of his security clearance from this point forward, agreeing to never hold one again -- hence ending any chance of him ever being President again AND ever being an in-room advisor to anyone in power.
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With all due respect, that's not a deal any prosecutor would offer. You really expect Trump would abide by an agreement of any kind? I doubt you could find a dozen people here in DC who would believe that he'd be good for his word.
And you're wrong, incidentally, that "everybody does it." Documents marked top secret are not stashed in briefcases and smuggled home; that doesn't happen. Look online--there are plenty of "it happened to me" stories about when someone tried that. And that isn't even getting into how several docs Trump had were so secret, they could not legally be removed from the secure facility where they'd be viewed.
Worth noting: ex-presidents are routinely offered classified briefings so that they would be able to advise the sitting president at need. Biden has revoked this courtesy with respect to Trump.
Edited by Andrew Bitner on 08 September 2022 at 4:28pm
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David Miller Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 3101
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 5:07pm | IP Logged | 8
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One of the most infuriating things about "but her emails" is how both the Bush and Trump administrations used insecure Republican National Committee email accounts (Trumpers also used WhatsApp) specifically to circumvent oversight and laws regarding record retention, and nobody gives a shit. We will never know how much official documentation has been lost or destroyed. Source.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 6:58pm | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
There was no law against what Hillary was doing with a private server; Colin Powell had done it himself, IIRC |
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Not true to the best of my knowledge. Powell did not have a private server. He used a personal email account for unclassified messages at a time when the State Department was technically lagging the general public in use of electronic communication.
If you can provide some evidence that Powell used a private server, I'd be happy to see it and amend my knowledge of the situation.
There is a law that prohibits unauthorised removal and retention of classified documents. According to Comey, she sent one email that discussed a top secret subject, but he judged her as being technically unsophisticated and it was an inadvertent lapse. Comey said the FBI looked very hard at whether they could make a case and his judgement was she did not break the law. Why would he even say that if there was no law that could have been broken?
In summary, I think with the full information, any talk of "lock her up" was silly. But you did need the full picture to make any kind of assessment, one way or the other.
With Trump it's obviously not exactly the same situation or even strongly similar. I think there's enough overlap, however, to see some vague similarity in people speculating about Mossad getting involved to chants of 'lock her up'. In fact, I think the Mossad stuff is even more ridiculous given there is no evidence of Israel being involved in any way (Is there? Once again, happy to amend my knowledge of the situation if anyone can provide firm information)
Edited by Peter Martin on 08 September 2022 at 6:59pm
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 15973
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 7:19pm | IP Logged | 10
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Just to be clear: my point isn't that Trump won't get locked up for this, or that he doesn't deserve it, simply that I don't know enough currently to say for sure.
That would likely change if the Washington Post's stuff is confirmed and elaborated on.
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John Wickett Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 July 2016 Location: United States Posts: 865
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 9:33pm | IP Logged | 11
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"This can't be overstated. A number of those documents could not even be looked at outside of secure facilities and under no circumstances could they be removed. Not even by a president."
I agree with you up until this point. But what you're saying here is based on unconfirmed leaks to the media, so I would classify this as speculation until its confirmed (which it may be; we just don't know yet).
Right now we know very little about the contents of the documents, except that they were classified.
Several of us have suggested that ultimately nothing will come from this; not because Trump didn't do anything wrong, but because Washington seldom holds people like Trump or Clinton accountable for their actions by criminally charging them.
However, if the government had solid evidence to suggest that Trump was selling nuclear secrets to a foreign power, I believe he would have been arrested.
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Michael Casselman Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 14 January 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1248
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Posted: 08 September 2022 at 11:36pm | IP Logged | 12
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"...how both the Bush and Trump administrations used insecure Republican National Committee email accounts..."
Maybe if they had asserted themselves more it would've built up their confidence ;-P
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