| Author |
|
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134281
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 12:44pm | IP Logged | 1
|
post reply
|
|
“But what have you done for me lately?”Almost a corporate mantra at Marvel. See treatment of Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, etc. And Chris Claremont.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12893
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 1:25pm | IP Logged | 2
|
post reply
|
|
I think what most distinguishes Mr. Claremont's approach to the X-MEN (comicbook), pre-JB, during-JB, and post-JB too, is broadly his having introduced "unearthly" elements, from outer space to magic realms, etc., and most specifically the Shi'ar. However, his approach to the X-Men (characters) in the pre-JB years didn't show that he was trying to go too far and change too much. Most significantly, Cyclops was still essentially the Cyclops of the original X-Men. Also, Mr. Claremont made a clear, and good, effort to turn the new X-Men into a family, a la the original. While I am also of the opinion that the JB-run was quite special -- in fact, for me, probably second only to the original Lee-Kirby issues -- what Chris Claremont did before and after that time is, I believe, markedly different. I have no idea whether, if JB had not come on, Mr. Claremont would've gone the directions he did go much sooner. Perhaps.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1219
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 3:03pm | IP Logged | 3
|
post reply
|
|
It's a fascinating thing to compare, how the two former collaborators addressed the same conundrum: how to keep the creativity and enthusiasm coming from month to month. Claremont stayed put and kept bringing other elements to the same book, while our gracious host moved from title to title to continue to stay inspired. Oversimplification for sure, but undeniable in their contrast. I guess it says as much about the nature of the work itself as it does the two creators. And we have the two bodies of work to compare the outcome. |
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 3:16pm | IP Logged | 4
|
post reply
|
|
Claremont was one of my most favorite writers in the early '80s(along with Marv Wolfman).
Over time, his tendencies and excesses, which made me excited about his work early on, really harm the work in totality. The number of picked up and dropped threads is (at least in my mind) immeasurable. The incredibly verbose exposition was too much. As beautiful as the art is, the Romita Jr period was unreadable when I was a kid and even more unreadable when I returned to it decades later.
I'll confess to thinking that the Silvestri Siege Perilous/ Outback era was a "return to form" but in retrospect that also has all the mess of previous periods.
I do think that his collaboration with JB and later Paul Smith was the apex of his time.
(Incidentally I also think WOlfman's collab with Perez was also HIS apex speaking to just how important the artists are in this genre.)
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6870
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 6:48pm | IP Logged | 5
|
post reply
|
|
ron: It's a fascinating thing to compare, how the two former collaborators addressed the same conundrum: how to keep the creativity and enthusiasm coming from month to month. Claremont stayed put and kept bringing other elements to the same book, while our gracious host moved from title to title to continue to stay inspired.
**
That's an interesting way to put it. I think another way to put it is that Chris Claremont apparently got what he wanted out of his work while staying on one title, while John Byrne apparently got what he wanted out of his work by working on many titles.
It goes along with the thought that John Byrne wanted to play with "the toys" in what was as close as possible to their "natural habitat." While Chris Claremont seemed to feel the canvas of one title was big enough to encompass what he had to say/wanted to do in comics.
I think we can see two very different perspectives on what comic book characters really are from these two bodies of work.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1219
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 7:02pm | IP Logged | 6
|
post reply
|
|
... And in retrospect it is a miracle they were able to capture lightning in a bottle for a time to work together as effectively as they did!
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134281
|
| Posted: 16 November 2023 at 9:19pm | IP Logged | 7
|
post reply
|
|
It goes along with the thought that John Byrne wanted to play with "the toys" in what was as close as possible to their "natural habitat." While Chris Claremont seemed to feel the canvas of one title was big enough to encompass what he had to say/wanted to do in comics. ••• In 1980 a group of us attending that summer’s Chicago Con were taken to a performance of WARP, a live sci fi play with costumes by Neal Adams. When the show ended, I turned to Joe Staton, sitting behind me, and said “Now I know what I’ll be keeping out of X-MEN for the next six months.” On the other side of the theater, too far away to have heard me, Chris jumped up and shouted “Have I got a plot for you!” It wasn’t the first time. Thru-out our association, be it mutants or martial arts, Chris was constantly folding in elements of the latest book he’d read, movie or TV show he’d seen. Most famously was when he declared the character arc of Livia, wife of Augustus in I, CLAUDIUS, “too good to waste!” Boyish enthusiasm, yes. But we saw more and more of it once I was no longer there to say “No!”
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Daniel Gillotte
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 October 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2712
|
| Posted: 17 November 2023 at 5:19pm | IP Logged | 8
|
post reply
|
|
It seems to almost always be true that EVERYONE needs an editor to pull back the reins some time to time. In the case of Mr. Claremont it seems like you as co-plotter was taking that role. As he progressed to other artists, and presumably ceded less and less plotting/ oversight to others his excesses never got tapered or removed.
It's amazing in a way JUST how flexible and pliable the Uncanny X-men were in that it lasted successfully for a good long while after you left for it to become a space opera with a Japanese ninja yakuza syndicate, secret agents showcase, time travel including time traveling super sentinel, Mad Max meets Robocop (with the Reavers), phantom of the opera mutants, and SO MUCH more. Ha! It did ultimately break but it bent a LOPNG way before breaking for most people.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16130
|
| Posted: 17 November 2023 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 9
|
post reply
|
|
As a reader, I think the dynamic tension between the Byrne-Claremont team delivered excellent work, but hearing more about it, I can see how it must have been very wearing to have to be the one constantly having to hold back the excesses of the other.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
|
| |
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
|
| Posted: 17 November 2023 at 11:05pm | IP Logged | 10
|
post reply
|
|
The artist does seem to make a huge difference on Claremont written comics. I can't say I really liked half of the two X-Men runs with Cockrum even though I love his art visually (have the new TwoMorrows book coming in hardcover)... there were some really low points/ideas in my opinion during his two stays; nobody put the breaks on 'wouldn't it be fun or cute' types of things that can break the reality/suspension of disbelief. Right in there though were the two issues of Kitty goes to Hellfire with Sherman/McLeod art I think were as good as any Byrne/Austin two issues, some good Brent Anderson stories, and the Paul Smith run that was way too brief unfortunately. I get the feeling Romita Jr. was just less of a creative participant than other artists and what you got there was 90% Claremont unchecked (depending on carrying on past glories plot-wise). It was also the times of characters going 'dark', and really the X-Men past Paul Smith for me was mostly depressing, I definitely preferred the New Mutants stories over the X-Men for a year or two. Claremont & Leialoha on Spider-Woman however was a great combination to me (well minus an Impossible Man issue). So had Claremont left with (Uncanny) X-Men #200 at the latest I might have stuck around.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |
James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8091
|
| Posted: 18 November 2023 at 7:39am | IP Logged | 11
|
post reply
|
|
Claremont was a writer I loved as a kid. The X-Men was my favourite title for
years - most of my teenage years to be truthful.
In many ways, the constant evolution & changing nature of the book was
one of the things I liked.
The guest artist issues such a BWS, Alan Davis & the first few Jim Lee
issues I enjoyed for their experimentation (lifedeath remains a favourite of
mine).
Yes, there were things that did not sit well at times - Cyclops moved further
& further from the character I loved, some story arcs didn’t land very well at
all, but overall, I still loved the book.
I still think the CC/JB issues were the best it ever was, I’m not sure I liked
the sound of what was planned after CC left, & certainly didn’t like what
came after he did leave, but then, everything became mega-arcs &
crossovers anyway, so who knows, the Marvel, line pretty much went to -to
post Image crew leaving anyway - poor art, mega-crossovers/arcs, terrible
characters.
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
e-mail
|
| |
Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
|
| Posted: 18 November 2023 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 12
|
post reply
|
|
I've read a short span of X-Men and various other X comics comics later on circa 1997-2000, some with Alan Davis art, and they had their moments, but the 'return of Claremont' is where I dropped them so don't know how that went or what it may've done to whatever I did like in the X books leading up to it. I have a run of Claremont's Fantastic Four from that time and it has an alternate future offspring (of Doom and Sue) so honestly to me it really looks like he had run out of ideas, still, very tempted to find that "#100" Cockrum alternate cover anyway despite being that start of Claremont's return. I don't have any new Marvels after mid 2001 so there's also that (just reprints... I do have a fair stack of DCs output though).
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 18 November 2023 at 6:24pm
|
| Back to Top |
profile
| search
| www
|
| |