Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login
The John Byrne Forum MOBILE
Byrne Robotics | The John Byrne Forum << Prev Page of 20 Next >>
Topic: Famous Folk talk Shakespeare Authorship Post Reply | Post New Topic
Author
Message
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 659
Posted: 18 June 2024 at 7:51pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The question is what evidence do we have to suggest such an unlikely thing occurred? The answer is NONE.

SB replied: What evidence do we have that John Shakespeare employed other men to help him? 

Why wouldn't, or couldn't, he have done? In what sense is it "unlikely" that he could or would have?
 
Mark Haslett wrote:  How does a thing which was in no case "Shakespeare" somehow comment on the spelling of "Shakespeare"?

SB replied: I'm not sure what point you think you're making?

The 1610 signature shows Gilbert spelling his family name as "Shakespeare" or maybe "Shakespear", with the "r" being written as a large flourish.

We also have six signatures which by common consent are from Will, each showing a different spelling of his surname.

We have a royal patent, giving again another variant.

In other words, and as was conventional for the time, the spelling of the Shakespeare surname - I'll use this version, as its the commonly accepted spelling - was fluid.







Edited by Steven Brake on 18 June 2024 at 7:53pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 659
Posted: 18 June 2024 at 9:26pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The evidence AGAINST Shaksper as Shakespeare has nothing to do with the case for any alternate candidate.

Mark Haslett earlier wrote: Once we agree who the author ISN’T, we can begin solving the mystery of who the author IS.

SB replied: So is the case for an alternative author contingent upon first proving it wasn't Will or not? 

Mark Haslett wrote: There IS clear and undeniable evidence from the period by credible witnesses of a hidden poet (DeVere or whoever) using "Shakespeare" as a pen name (Joseph Hall).

SB replied: Hall seems to have doubted that Will of Stratford wrote Venus & Adonis. This doesn't prove that he didn't.

Mark Haslett wrote: Being declared a good playwright does not, in any way, mean you might not have reasons to work anonymously.

SB replied: Why would it be necessary to conceal your identity as a playwright when it's known that you're a playwright?
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6445
Posted: 18 June 2024 at 10:00pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

In a discussion about whether or not a man born as “Shaksper” is actually
the great author referred to almost exclusively as “Shakespeare”, you want
to be able to describe all the spellings as variations of “Shakespeare.”
That’s a bias that leads from starting with a conclusion.

If the Stratford man is the author, then Shakespeare is a variation of
Shaksper.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6445
Posted: 18 June 2024 at 10:30pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

SB replied: Why would it be necessary to conceal your identity as a playwright when it's known that you're a playwright?

**

If the play you don’t want attached to your name is, say, Richard II --then one reason might be that it would be potentially treasonous.

Or maybe you want to poke fun at William Cecil in a way he can’t retaliate against.

Those are explanations that suit any alternate candidate.

But to answer your first question, it seems like I’ve confused you.

Let me put it this way: Unseating Stratford Will from his traditionally seen seat is an important first step in understanding who the author is. Only when he is seen as one candidate among many can the evidence be fairly judged.

The “name problem” is unique to Shaksper in that it could diminish his claim since “Shakespeare” is not a spelling he commonly used, but it is the definitive spelling of the author on poems and plays.

Edited by Mark Haslett on 18 June 2024 at 11:32pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133399
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 1:00am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

BECAME the definitive spelling. Remember that hyphen—and what it meant to a Tudor audience.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 659
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 7:45am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: The “name problem” is unique to Shaksper in that it could diminish his claim since “Shakespeare” is not a spelling he commonly used, but it is the definitive spelling of the author on poems and plays.

SB replied: In 1597, the records of his purchase of New House give his name as Willielum Shakespeare.

In 1598, Francis Meres acclaims the plays written by William Shakespeare (and also separately praises Oxford, making it difficult to see how they can be one and the same person). 

In 1603, the royal patent for the creation of The King's Men gives his name as William Shakespeare.

In 1613, the purchase of the gatehouse near Blackfriars Theatre gives his name as William Shakespeare. 

In 1623, the First Folio, whose publication has been arranged by John Heminges and Henry Condell, and who were also named in the royal patent of 1603, used the name William Shakespeare.

As I've repeatedly explained, spelling was fluid in the Elizabethan/Jacobean period, but far from "not a spelling he commonly used", "Shakespeare" was not only regularly used, but seems to have been the preferred spelling for official business.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 659
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 7:52am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

JB wrote: BECAME the definitive spelling. Remember that hyphen—and what it meant to a Tudor audience.

SB replied: Nothing. 

Oxfordians - and, I presume, other alternative authorship theorists - place great significance on the intermittent use of hyphens. No-one else does, and there's no evidence that they were seen to denote that a pseudonym was being used.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6445
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 8:27am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Is there anything in this debate that you will not use an “argument of
authority” to counter, Steven?

Your errors are so many that it is hard to keep up, but you post without a
shred of humility or “I have read…” With you it’s always “This is SO and I
have tried to explain this to uou…”

You have long ago acknowledged that Shakespeare’s contemporaries
declared that Venus & Adonis was written under a pen name.

Joseph Hall didn’t “express doubt”. He declared it was so— he called out
Shakespeare and criticized the author for being known under a pen name—
it was trash talk aimed at a fellow poet.

This is a fact. It is evidence to be considered and answered for.

Your entire defense of Shaksper as Shakespeare and of him having an
education and of him being a poet is a tapestry of “he could have” and “why
couldn’t he have” and “it seems to me”…

We all know he COULD have— he COULD have been an alien
masquerading as a human. We don’t have any evidence he wasn’t. But
Why Why Why isn’t there any unambiguous primary source evidence that
he WAS a writer?

You are a Shakespeare Lit professor, right? What would happen to you if
you suddenly looked into Joseph Hall’s work and career and came away
convinced he was credible? What if it led you to question your faith in
Shaksper’s mythical education and his alleged ties to acting and writing? It
is not hard to explain them away or find evidence that contradicts the
common belief in them. They exist on a thread of thin connections woven by
people who, after the fact, wanted to tie the works to a glover’s son in
Stratford on Avon.

So what would happen to your career if you were to embrace these
completely reasonable positions and begin doubting the traditional
attribution?
Back to Top profile | search
 
John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133399
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 11:09am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Your entire defense of Shaksper as Shakespeare and of him having aneducation and of him being a poet is a tapestry of “he could have” and “whycouldn’t he have” and “it seems to me”…

•••

One of the earliest pieces I read on this subject made just this point, that so many biographies of “Shakespeare” are more often documentaries of his time and place, not the man himself. Assumption rules over scholarship.

Go back to Mark Twain’s description of the Stratford man as being like a museum dinosaur, a few bones and a lot of plaster of paris.

Back to Top profile | search
 
Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12730
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The basic problem with "Shakespeare" is that even if we assume that William Shakespeare/Skaksper (any spelling, any pronunciation) of Stratford was the author we still have no direct evidence of any of kind from any time about how, when, where, and why he himself actually wrote these works. Positing him as the author as the starting point can lead to a host of further circumstantial assumptions the likelihood of which remains based on that primary authorial assumption. This doesn't mean he wasn't the author. But it renders every biography of "Shakespeare" extraordinarily speculative.
Back to Top profile | search
 
Rich Johnston
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 04 February 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 33
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 12:00pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Since this is "famous folk" on Shakespeare's authorship, it might be fun to bring up Ben Elton, co-creator/writer of The Young Ones, Blackadder II, The Third and Goes Forth, and extensive novelist. But also the writer of the rather excellent Shakespeare sitcom Upstart Crow and the more serious Kenneth Branagh Shakespeare film All Is True. Elton talks about the authorship issue as one of class snobbery, a very English obsession. He also tackles this in Upstart Crow's Wolf Hall episode when Shakespeare's staff and the theatre's actors begin to doubt his authorship, as it is more likely that "a posh boy did it". I've heard him speak about the issue in person, but Elton wrote about it for the Radio Times here:   https://www.radiotimes.com/tv/comedy/ben-elton-only-snobbish -elitist-britain-could-say-that-shakespeare-didnt-write-his- own-plays/

Edited by Rich Johnston on 19 June 2024 at 12:01pm
Back to Top profile | search
 
Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 659
Posted: 19 June 2024 at 12:18pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Mark Haslett wrote: Is there anything in this debate that you will not use an “argument of authority” to counter, Steven? 

SB replied: So I'm not meant to refer to external sources...

Mark Haslett also wrote: Your errors are so many that it is hard to keep up, but you post without a shred of humility or “I have read…” 

SB replied:...but I also should refer to them.

Hm. 

Mark Haslett wrote: You have long ago acknowledged that Shakespeare’s contemporaries declared that Venus & Adonis was written under a pen name.

SB replied: I've agreed that Joseph Hall had doubts over Shakespeare's authorship. That isn't proof, it's a suspicion, or an accusation.

Mark Haslett wrote: Your entire defense of Shaksper as Shakespeare and of him having an education and of him being a poet is a tapestry of “he could have” and “why couldn’t he have” and “it seems to me”…

SB replied: In 1603, William Shakespeare is named in the patent confirming the creation of The King's Men. Also named in the patent are Henry Condell and John Heminges.

In 1616, William Shakespeare (or Shakspeare) dies in Stratford-Upon-Avon. He names Henry Condell and John Heminges among the beneficiaries of his will. 

In 1623, the First Folio is published. Henry Condell and John Heminges explain that they arranged for it to be created to commemorate the memory of William Shakespeare. The man they'd known for years, and who died in Stratford-Upon-Avon, naming them as beneficiaries in his will.

That, to me, is as straight a line of evidence as can reasonably be expected. What is the Oxfordian counter to it? What reasonable counter is there to this?

Mark Haslett wrote: But Why Why Why isn’t there any unambiguous primary source evidence that he WAS a writer?

SB replied: See Jonson's public, private and posthumous remarks about Shakespeare in which he varies in his opinion of his writing but never once states or even hints that he wasn't the author.

Mark Haslett wrote: You are a Shakespeare Lit professor, right? 

SB replied: No. I took a PhD on Shakespeare's history plays from Edinburgh University, but I'm not currently working in academia.

Mark Haslett wrote: So what would happen to your career if you were to embrace these completely reasonable positions and begin doubting the traditional attribution?

SB replied: In 1915, Einstein published his Theory of General Relativity, which posited a new explanation for gravity which contradicted that of Sir Isaac Newton, and which had held sway for about 300 years, and which seemed to have been proved by the Eddington experiments in 1919 (although they have been criticised as not having been quite as conclusive as they were presented).

Yet much of the scientific establishment rejected Einstein's theory.  A book was published in 1931 called "A Hundred Authors Against Einstein", leading to his famous quip "If I was wrong, then one author would have been enough".

More tests were made, and which over and over again proved that Einstein had been corrected. Gradually, it came to be accepted that Newton had been wrong - or not wholly accurate, and his calculations can still be used - and Einstein was right.

Probably as much as any figure in history, Newton was an authority, the living personification of science, and genius itself. Yet the evidence proved that he was wrong, and, while it was resisted, it couldn't be denied.

Let's say that unambiguous evidence that Will of Stratford wasn't the author was discovered. A diary, or a series of letters, or - oh, I don't know. But something that shows that the Stratford Man wasn't the playwright he was assumed to be.

Nearing the end of a career that may have lasted decades, how would older members of the academy react upon being faced with evidence that their career - their life - was based on a lie, or misconception? Almost certainly, and pretty unanimously, with hostility, rejecting the evidence, insisting that it was faked, demanding further testing, etc.

But it would also be one of the most exciting moments in literary history. Whoever found such evidence would become an instant celebrity, able to produce a best-selling book, front a prestigious documentary, tour the lecture circuit, etc.

And the same pattern as with Newton/Einstein would follow. However resistant they were at first, more and more academics would come round. Further evidence would be searched for. Plays would be reassessed. Biographies and articles written. The previous consensus would be overturned.
Back to Top profile | search
 

<< Prev Page of 20 Next >>
  Post Reply | Post New Topic |

Forum Jump

 Active Topics | Member List | Search | Help | Register | Login

You are currently viewing the MOBILE version of the site.
CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE FULL SITE