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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
Posted: 14 July 2020 at 5:45pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

In a previous thread II mentioned the hoo har over J K Rowling & her
post regarding the term People who menstruate.

Today I learned yet another term being used instead of women - femme
presenting people.

Are we seriously entering a world where the term woman/women is
getting phased out?
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Michael Murphy
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Joined: 06 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 349
Posted: 14 July 2020 at 7:35pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Is a significant enough portion of the population making the change to impact the culture at large?  If so, then yes. I sometimes wonder why people oppose such changes.

Is is because they are against the reason for the change? If so then OK, people have conflicting opinions on the reasons behind any change.

Is it because they are just used to certain words and dislike the change? That one I understand less. Language always changes and I don't think we are any worse off linguistically because other words, now considered archaic, fell out of use or were replaced. Technology (such as the telegraph and SMS messaging) drastically changed how we write, and social movements have had similar impacts on language. At the time the changes may have been lamented but soon they become the norm and possibly then faded again for the next round of change.

Is it something else?

English as it currently is happens to be the language I speak, read and write but beyond that I don't have an undue emotional attachment to it. As long as it allows me to communicate with those I needed to it has done it's job as far as I am concerned, changes or not.
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14938
Posted: 14 July 2020 at 8:19pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Various attempts at a gender-neutral pronoun have gone nowhere. Meanwhile the cis- prefix seems to have been mainstreamed and accepted quickly, even among people who seem apathetic or hostile to trans activism. Either people find a word or phrase useful and it catches on, or they don’t and it becomes forgotten.

I’m not concerned about woman going away any time soon. I am, however, bothered by the word “Yeet!”
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Richard Stevens
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Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1991
Posted: 14 July 2020 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I'm anti-"meh" myself.

But anything anyone wants to call themselves, just let me know and it's all good. Might not always get it right, but there's no reason to deny people who they are.
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Kevin Brown
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Joined: 31 May 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 9139
Posted: 14 July 2020 at 10:11pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I'm seeing AFAB used a lot more lately.

AFAB mean "assigned female at birth".
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David Miller
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 3228
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 12:13am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

I like keeping up with evolving language and mores for common courtesy -- it's progress. I appreciate the challenge as I defenestrate into middle age. Ultimately other people's serious personal and societal struggles for and about identity only impact my privilege with a call for politeness, which I am happy to provide.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 12:30am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Michael R, I am in a constant war with my son over the word ‘yeet’@
present, I am losing, badly.

The thing about these new names/descriptions for women, for me @
least, is that I don’t see a reciprocal being used for men.So, once
again, language seems to be being used to redefine women.

Michael M asks if there is a significant portion of the population making
the change? There is certainly a vocal proportion making or supporting
the change.He also asks why people might be against the change.Well,
for me, I don’t see Too many people who Were born women asking for
this change, but I do see people who were not born women asking &
supporting the change.

So, once again, women having something foisted on them.I understand
that it is part of the wider debate into trans rights, & to be honest, I
worry about some of the moves being made, especially with how it
could be possible for these rules to be exploited, but to redefine 50% of
the population With, to be honest, terms that could very well sound
derogatory or degrading with the easiest of manipulation, seems a little
overkill.

Edited to remove any confusion re which Michael is which

Edited by James Woodcock on 15 July 2020 at 12:58am
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36508
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 12:48am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

It's all a learning curve though, right?  We cast things out into the waters of the ever changing English language and some things take hold while others do not.  I think it's fairly amazing watching how language evolves to fit the times in which we live.  Scan a dictionary from a century ago compared to one today.  It's impressive and really tells its own tale of where we were and are now.  

I tend not to get too hung up on these things.  They work themselves out regardless of how much or little I care about them.  
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I agree Matt, language evolves & changes - some stick, some doesn’t.

My main issue with the ‘people who menstruate’ one is that
menstruation has often been used against women - be that phrases like
‘it’s their time of the month’ or even cultures where women are
ostracised during those six to seven days.

& it doesn’t address post menopausal women either - what do they
start to be called? People who used to menstruate? Not a very positive
start.
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36508
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 1:34am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

If we're getting into what I think about JK Rowlings, that's another topic entirely.  Although I love her original books, I think she is like Trump: the less said on Twitter, the better.
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14938
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 11 post reply


 QUOTE:
My main issue with the ‘people who menstruate’ one is that 
menstruation has often been used against women - be that phrases like 
‘it’s their time of the month’ or even cultures where women are 
ostracised during those six to seven days.

& it doesn’t address post menopausal women either - what do they 
start to be called? People who used to menstruate? Not a very positive 
start.

You seem to be confused about the whole "people who menstruate" brouhaha, James. No one is advocating this as a replacement for the term woman.

Rowling was commenting about this article, which was discussing the accessibility of menstrual materials amidst the pandemic.


This was not a discussion about post-menopausal women. This was not a discussion about women in general. It was about people who need hygiene products, which include women, girls, trans men, and nonbinary people who go through menstruation. "People who menstruate" was meant to be inclusive of people who don't identify as women, yet still menstruate. Rowling chimed in and implied that the correct term for this was women, for which she got accused of transphobia.

Then she continued to double down by writing a long essay defending her views and including the bathroom debate and her concerns that male predators will pretend to be trans to get access to women's bathrooms. And then she deleted a tweet praising Stephen King and unfollowed him after he acknowledged that trans women are women.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
Posted: 15 July 2020 at 2:21am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Ah, thank you Michael - I actually don't have Twitter so
only saw the backlash.

I actually was confusing things, so thanks for clearing
that up.

in the context of that article, yes, nothing wrong with
using that term at all.
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