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Oliver Denker
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 August 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 232
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 12:59am | IP Logged | 1
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There is a difference between a fight over semantics and their meaning to different people and a fact like that women don't want to go to women restrooms, when there are men in women's clothing.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4944
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 1:12am | IP Logged | 2
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The one woman I talked to said she was assaulted by a man in a women's bathroom decades ago and the idea of men coming into women's bathrooms terrifies her. Unfortunately, her opinions no longer count.
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Michael Roberts
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Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 1:39am | IP Logged | 3
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a fact like that women don't want to go to women restrooms, when there are men in women's clothing.
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Trans women are not men in women's clothing.
The same bigoted bathroom laws that would prevent trans women from using women's restrooms would also force trans men to use women's restroom. So you'd have men in men's clothing being forced to use the women's restroom because they were assigned female at birth.
It's all a bit of security theater on the part of anti-trans conservatives. The argument is that allowing trans women to use women's restrooms would allow a sexual predator to claim that he was a trans woman to enter the restroom. But if the law required people to use the restroom of the gender they were assigned at birth, a sexual predator could just claim he was a trans man that had to use the women's restroom.
All of which ignores the fact that statistics show no link between allowing trans people to use the bathroom and voyeurism or sexual assault. And if someone /really/ wanted to assault someone in the women's restroom, there's nothing really stopping them from going through the door. I know I've been guilty of being too focused on my phone and stepping into the wrong restroom before. There's no gender bouncer there.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14937
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 1:41am | IP Logged | 4
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The one woman I talked to said she was assaulted by a man in a women's bathroom decades ago and the idea of men coming into women's bathrooms terrifies her.
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Anti-transgender bathroom laws would force trans men to use the women's bathroom.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 1:48am | IP Logged | 5
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I do struggle with this.
On the one hand, people should be allowed to be who they
want to be, the caveat being that you don't deliberately
harm or beat down others by being that person.
But, my concern is when one person's freedoms restrict
other people's freedoms - what takes priority?
For me, women's restrooms, women's refuges really should
not be for males who identify as women. As a minimum,
unless there has been full transitioning, they should
not be allowed in.
Women have been marginalised and beaten down, abused
since the year dot. For me, a lot of the language, a lot
of the calls for neutrality are a threat to the little
gains they have managed to make.
I fully understand that the trans community are shouting
that they too are marginalised, feel threatened, but the
solution to that is not to take away the few places
women have left - especially when one of those is their
main identity, and the places they can go to to escape
fear and abuse if needed.
Now, are those possibilities real, or is it a stalking
false narrative? Are these things really being asked
for? Or are they areas being used to create negative
opinions?
That is certainly a tactic that has been used on many
occasions - to switch tack for a second, this was a
tactic used against the EU in the UK - 20 odd years of
stories that were just made up, plastered on the front
pages of newspapers - with no accountability. The Eu
even has a web page highlighting each of the stories,
makes for fascinating reading - but it worked. People
didn't trust the EU, what they understood of the EU was
completely false. All based on untruths.
Is my understanding of what the trans community is
actually campaigning for based on untruths and false
reporting? I don't know. There certainly seems to be
representatives from the community being quoted, giving
interviews on these topics that align with what I think
is being asked for.
So yeah, I'm worried that women are going to lose a lot
of their identity here.
As an aside, I did a bit of work in Canada a few years
ago and the office had changed its toilets from
male/female to unisex - but only one person was allowed
in each toilet area at a time - because they wanted to
ensure men and women wouldn't be in the same unit at the
same time.
You went from a women's toilet with three units and a
male unit with one stall and three urinals to having two
units use at any one time.
There was a constant queue for the toilet - with
multiple males and females queuing at the same time, and
yet, two females or two males were not allowed to use
the same set of toilets at the same time.
I understand the reasoning, but the result was crazy.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14937
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:23am | IP Logged | 6
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QUOTE:
For me, women's restrooms, women's refuges really should
not be for males who identify as women. |
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Trans women are not "males who identify as women".
QUOTE:
I fully understand that the trans community are shouting that they too are marginalised, feel threatened, but the
solution to that is not to take away the few places
women have left - especially when one of those is their
main identity, and the places they can go to to escape
fear and abuse if needed. |
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Accepting trans women as women would mean that they wouldn't be taking away from women because they are women.
QUOTE:
As an aside, I did a bit of work in Canada a few years ago and the office had changed its toilets from
male/female to unisex - but only one person was allowed
in each toilet area at a time - because they wanted to
ensure men and women wouldn't be in the same unit at the
same time. |
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A lot of places around here have kept the female restroom while converting the male restroom to unisex. I think that's a better solution. Some men might claim it's unfair, but most of the time we just piss and leave.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4944
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:39am | IP Logged | 7
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And if a women disagrees this that definition, is she a “piece of human garbage”? This is the problem.
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Neil Lindholm
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Location: China
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:43am | IP Logged | 8
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Read about Jessica Yaniv and the recent court case in Canada. Whose rights take priority?
As well, the Vancouver Rape Relief and Women’s Shelter and their defunding and attacks against them.
Edited by Neil Lindholm on 17 July 2020 at 2:55am
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Michael Roberts
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Location: United States
Posts: 14937
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 3:08am | IP Logged | 9
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QUOTE:
| And if a women disagrees this that definition, is she a “piece of human garbage”? This is the problem. |
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Oh noes! An activist was rude, and it immediately disqualifies all trans activism.
QUOTE:
| Read about Jessica Yaniv and the recent court case in Canada. Whose rights take priority? |
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I agree with the BCHRT that this was not a gender identity issue, and it was about the right to refuse to wax scrotums, which is a service not offered.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4944
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 3:13am | IP Logged | 10
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Jessica Yaniv also sued over leg waxing.
And read what the activists did to the Vancouver Women's Rape Shelter.
Edited by Neil Lindholm on 17 July 2020 at 3:13am
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James Woodcock
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Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 3:37am | IP Logged | 11
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QUOTE:
For me, women's restrooms, women's refuges really should
not be for males who identify as women.
Trans women are not "males who identify as women".
-------------------------------------------
I chose my words very carefully.
I am talking about males who have not transitioned in
that statement.
Anatomical males who identify as female but have no
intention of transitioning.
This really is where I find difficulties.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 3:38am | IP Logged | 12
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A lot of places around here have kept the female restroom
while converting the male restroom to unisex. I think
that's a better solution. Some men might claim it's
unfair, but most of the time we just piss and leave.
------------------------------------------------
I agree, I would rather that be the way forward.
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