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Oliver Denker
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 August 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 232
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 3:45am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

There we go and come back to the definition 'what makes a woman'.

I'll go with J.K. Rowling. Women are the ones who menstruate. 

The rest are guys who like to crossdress or have got psychological identity problems and should stay out of women's restrooms.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14937
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 4:03am | IP Logged | 2 post reply


 QUOTE:
Jessica Yaniv also sued over leg waxing.

I'd expect, as a cis-male, that I could go to a salon and have my legs waxed. *shrug* It's not a service I see offered at barbers.


 QUOTE:
And read what the activists did to the Vancouver Women's Rape Shelter.

The vandalism was wrong. Extreme behavior on the part of a set of activists still doesn't disqualify activism.

The shelter's argument that they can only provide services to women "born female" doesn't seem to hold up. If the argument is that cis women would be uncomfortable with a trans woman with masculine traits, what about a cis-passing trans woman? If the argument is that trans women are different because they benefitted from male privilege, what about trans women who identified young, started presenting themselves as female young, and received puberty blockers and never developed male secondary characteristics?

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Marc Baptiste
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 17 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3633
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 4:12am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Oliver,

Not all genetic women menstruate - hysterectomies, menopause, etc.

Marc
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14937
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 4:37am | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
I am talking about males who have not transitioned in 
that statement.
Anatomical males who identify as female but have no 
intention of transitioning.

This really is where I find difficulties.

To be crude for a moment, if I chopped off your dick and balls right now, would you immediately cease identifying as a male? What if I transferred your brain into a robot body? Would you cease identifying as male?

Is your gender identity defined by your genitals or by your brain? If you can accept that is defined by your brain, what determines whether your brain is male or female? Hormones. There's a ton of literature on how "masculine" and "feminine" traits are determined by exposure to hormones in the prenatal, uterine environment. If we can accept that the brain can be gendered prenatally, would it be possible that there might be a mismatch between one's gendered brain and one's anatomy?

And circling back, if all the above is the case, should we be acknowledging people by their innate identity or their external anatomical characteristics?




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Oliver Denker
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 August 2018
Location: Germany
Posts: 232
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:09am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Why did I post something here? 
The moment I did it, I knew I'd regret it.
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Carlos Velasco
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 02 August 2019
Location: Spain
Posts: 277
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:18am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

The other day I tried to convince a young girl that transgender people, after surgery, don't have neither a penis nor a vagina.

I knew I was doomed to fail, but I felt like I needed to share this information with her.

She said one of her friends was a transgender "girl" who was "born in the wrong body" and after surgery she's now "so happy".

I told her that science, as of 2020, can't create vaginas, that some animals have bisexual behaviours but no animal feels it belongs to a different gender, and that her friend would never really be "happy" because "her" sexual life would never be normal again.

As a voter of so called "far-left" parties, I'm worried about how science is so easily disregarded in these complex and dangerous matters. I still vote for these parties because only 1 out of 1000 people feels like they have been born "in the wrong body", so most people will not be affected.

One of the biggest failures of human culture is the constant negation of humans as animals with instincts who are subjects to the laws of physics and science. Some people wants us to believe we are some kind of robots, or angels, or spirits born in the wrong body. We definitely give too much importance to our minds.

If tomorrow I woke up living in a woman's body, I would definitely not touch it (at least, not in that way!).


Edited by Carlos Velasco on 17 July 2020 at 5:22am
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8600
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:19am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Michael, I think there is a world of difference between
what I'm talking about and what you are talking about.
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Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1391
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:25am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Or maybe we just identify people by their sex?

No amount of ball-chopping-robot-body-swapping is going
to alter a human at a chromasomal level. You were born
with XY chromasomes, you're a man; XX you're a woman.

Controversial, I know.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 136691
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:40am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

The argument is based on what the individual FEELS, independent of chromosomes. If the body is male, but the individual FEELS female, that is what has to be addressed.

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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 136691
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 5:42am | IP Logged | 10 post reply

...some animals have bisexual behaviours but no animal feels it belongs to a different gender...

•••

That statement is invalid without telepathy.

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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14937
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 6:00am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

You were born  with XY chromasomes, you're a man; XX you're a woman.  

Controversial, I know.

——-

Except there are such things as XY females and XX males and XXY males...


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Mario Ribeiro
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 June 2016
Location: Brazil
Posts: 474
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Look, trans people have the right to use public restrooms. We all understand that sometimes we gotta go, right? As Michael said (maybe more than once), if trans women are not allowed to go to the holy land of women's restrooms, then trans men will have to. And here is the thing, I can't pass as a trans woman, but I can sure pass as a trans man, and this is true for most people here. So women will feel threatened no matter what. And then of course trans women also feel threatened to go to men's restrooms because they also fear rape and sexual assault. Maybe instead of separating restrooms by gender we should start by separating by how afraid you are. Maybe that should be one option for one or two (if friends) at a time. And another for more.

But since we're talking about it, it's okay to admit that not all trans people are the same. Some will spend a ton of money and effort in order to pass, and they have no problem going in women's restrooms. Your daughter won't even realize that the lady in question is trans (but, but... the chromossomes!). Some trans people will not spend all that money transitioning, and that's okay, that's their choice (and when we're talking about hormones and surgeries it is a choice), but the world will not treat them the same way, not only in restrooms but everywhere. It is okay to admit that and to understand that a frightened woman will not care about the way you feel or what you know about yourself.


People are afraid and the answer is not to simply tell them to stop being afraid. A lot has to change for people to lose their fear.

Now, the interesting question is: should lesbians, in general, have sex with trans women who didn't get bottom surgery?
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