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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2287
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 6:43am | IP Logged | 1
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Michael>>Except there are such things as XY females and XX males and XXY males...<<
Yes! And what's more interesting is it's the presence or absence of literally a single gene (SRY) that causes XY people to be born female, or XX to be born male.
Makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint too. If the mechanism wasn't simple, it would not only break more often, but it probably wouldn't have evolved at all.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 7:30am | IP Logged | 2
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As I have said before, even as society drags itself into a new century, there is still insistence that there are only two boxes on the form, [M] and [F].So, if someone feels "uncomfortable" with the body they were born in, they have little in the way of choice. The notion of gender as a "spectrum" is catching on, but it has a long way to go. Which is one of the reasons the suicide rate is disproportionately high in the transgender community.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4759
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:12am | IP Logged | 3
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Mr. Byrne: "...as society drags itself..." I know this was unintentional and not entirely applicable... but thank you for the laugh!
I am stuck being old and dumb. I understand that some people feel differently than others about what they feel their gender is. I have no problem with how they accommodate it, as long as they don't hurt anyone else.
I think I also understand that a lot of issues are how society relates to such persons in legal status. Men are treated one way, women are treated another way, and God only knows how others are addressed.
But... if everyone were treated equally, it wouldn't be any issue. Someone makes a will... then everyone knows how their properties should be discharged after their death. If they want to share their life together, and they want it legally recognized... then just go to a Justice of the Peace and there you go.*
How they are treated religiously may be another matter; but that's between their religion and themselves. And shouldn't be subject to public criticism, any more than baptisms or circumcisions.
To me, the bottom line is that I prefer women. And being married, I'm not on the lookout for a mate. And I don't care who goes into a bathroom with me. I don't look now; why would I look if it's a woman? And that's what I think about it.
*Polyamory is different and should have nothing to do with gender identities.
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 732
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:17am | IP Logged | 4
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JB wrote:
As I have said before, even as society drags itself into a new century, there is still insistence that there are only two boxes on the form, [M] and [F]. So, if someone feels "uncomfortable" with the body they were born in, they have little in the way of choice. The notion of gender as a "spectrum" is catching on, but it has a long way to go.
--------------------------------------------------------
As I understand it, this is the nub of feminist criticism, or some feminist criticism, of transgenderism - that "M" and "F" refer to sex which is distinct from gender, and that while the latter is a cultural norm imposed by society, the former is immutable and relates to biology. If a man chooses to behave in a traditionally feminine way, let him - but he's still a man, and not a woman. Ditto for women behaving in traditonally masculine ways.
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2016
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:23am | IP Logged | 5
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Michael Roberts wrote:
Oh noes! An activist was rude, and it immediately disqualifies all trans activism. ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------- Michael, have you seen the abuse that Rowling has received for what seem to be fairly measured comments? On Twitter she's been posting pictures drawn by children for her "Ickabog" story, and there have been numerous instances where TRA, or TRA supporters, have posted pornographic images knowing (or not caring) that children will see them.
I'm not a huge fan of feminism, but feminists have overwhelmingly been the targets of the most vile online abuse from TRA - and it does seem to be pretty much one-way traffic.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:29am | IP Logged | 6
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What’s a traditional masculine way of behaving?And how would someone born into a female body know what that was? There are about a billion settings on the “male” dial, and at least an equal number on “female”. I think individuals who conceive of themselves as “transgender” are doing themselves a tremendous disservice by allowing themselves to be forced into the “other box”. They should be declaring “I AM ME! I AM UNIQUE! DEAL WITH IT!”
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:37am | IP Logged | 7
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I have said before that while broad labels are a convenient way of modularizing ideas, I find that they can give a profoundly false sense of understanding with concepts that have fuzzy boundaries or lots of exceptions or both.Social phenomena in particular.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:40am | IP Logged | 8
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Gender fluid. Not in this box, not in that one. Not really in any box at all!
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2016
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 8:44am | IP Logged | 9
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Preferred choices of clothing, sports, games, etc, tend to be seen as gendered. Boys play with Action Man (or G.I Joe!), girls with Barbie or Cindy, that kind of thing. Some transgender activists have claimed that girls playing with Lego have a male brain, and therefore ought to be transitioned. Many feminist activists point to things like this as being stupidly sexist, arguing that transgenderism affirms gender roles rather than challenges them.
It's probably true to say that "male" and "female" covers a range of setting rather than prescribing a defined identity. I like poetry and amn't particularly interested in football (or soccer!), which caused one of my uncles to view me with deep suspicion as a kid. But it's probably also true that there is a distinction between male and female, and that if women are concerned, or even frightened, about the prospect of sharing their spaces with men, that their fears aren't just dismissed, and that they aren't accused of being bigots. |
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 9:09am | IP Logged | 10
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Preferred choices of clothing, sports, games, etc, tend to be seen as gendered. Boys play with Action Man (or G.I Joe!), girls with Barbie or Cindy, that kind of thing. •• Wow
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 9:13am | IP Logged | 11
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?
Certain toys are seen to be more appropriate for boys, others for girls. I'm not saying I agree with this, but it's undoubtedly true.
Many TRAs seem to take this to extremes, arguing that boys drawn to traditionally feminine things, or girls to traditionally masculine things, have been born in the wrong body. And it's this that many feminists have really taken issue with, arguing - and correctly, I think - that this line of thought affirms rather than challenges concepts of gender.
Edited by Steven Brake on 17 July 2020 at 9:15am
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 9:41am | IP Logged | 12
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Toy preferences are conditioned. My nephews loved playing with dolls -- not just "action figures" -- until they started interacting with boys who were taught dolls were for girls.
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