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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 732
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Yes, that's the point that many feminists are making - that gender roles or perceived norms are the product of  social conditioning, but sex is something quite distinct, immutable and biological.
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Jim Muir
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 26 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1391
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

<<Except there are such things as XY females and XX males
and XXY males...>>

Yes there are. But these are the rarities, the edge
cases.
But you knew that.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 136691
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The internet is the place where extremes are rolled onto center court to support an argument.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14938
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

<<Except there are such things as XY females and XX males 
and XXY males...>>

Yes there are. But these are the rarities, the edge cases. 
But you knew that.
 
-----

Oh, don't give me that shit. The point is that genetics alone is not sufficient to determine sex. Genes, the expression of genes, exposure to hormones in the uterine environment, the body's sensitivity to sex hormones all play a factor in sex, gender, and sexual orientation. There are a lot of steps along the way where sexual development can be influenced and trying to reduce everything to chromosomes is reductionist.


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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 14938
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply


 QUOTE:
that gender roles or perceived norms are the product of  social conditioning, but sex is something quite distinct, immutable and biological.

I can only speak for myself, but my willingness, or lack thereof, to conform to gender roles remains separate and distinct from my identity as a male. I never once considered that I'm not a male because I liked some things that were "feminine" or disinterested in some things that were "masculine". I trust transgender individuals can understand the difference between gender roles and gender identity as well.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2287
Posted: 17 July 2020 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Steven>> immutable and biological.<<

"immutable" as in "nothing can change it"?
You ought to look into CRISPR.  I can say without a hint of hyperbole that it's one of the most powerful technologies humanity has stumbled on because it can be used to decided after the fact what any part of a genome can be.

If you aren't into dry research papers, here's a fun episode of John Oliver's "Last Week Tonight" that took a peek: Link
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 732
Posted: 18 July 2020 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

@Conrad:

Can CRISPR change a human's sex after they've been born? Or is it something that's done - or can be done, if the technology is still being developed - to the embryo while it's in the womb?

If it does become possible to physically change sex, I wonder how many transpeople will use it? Something that annoys, or even infuriates, many feminists about transwomen is that they seem to retain their male biology, and reduce being female to pretty superficial characteristics - wearing make-up and a wig, and putting on a dress.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2287
Posted: 18 July 2020 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Steven>>Can CRISPR change a human's sex after they've been born? Or is it something that's done - or can be done, if the technology is still being developed - to the embryo while it's in the womb?<<

At the moment, no.  Experiments on humans for procedures outside curing disease may be frowned on for some time too (maybe even in China).  Obviously any edits would be vastly simpler on a single cell like a fertilized ovum. However, the technology is still being aggressively developed. Due to it's utility in research, the technology has improved several generations in just a few years, an amazing pace of progress.  

That said, there's things like this: Link.  and more recent update (Link).  The inevitable, "yeah, but that's mice" caveats apply, but perhaps far less brute-force tinkering is required than one might imagine.  The main point being that thanks to CRISPR, it may not be too long before even genetic level biological attributes become far more mutable than had ever been possible because we simply didn't have a tool.


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Stephen Churay
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 25 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 8369
Posted: 18 July 2020 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Interesting, did you know, that currently,
human experiments are being conducted by Los
Angeles county juvenile detention system,
using female hormones in males as a means
curing Oppositional Defiance Disorder. The
juvenile inmates are not given a choice in
this matter.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4944
Posted: 18 July 2020 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Would love to see a link to that story. I find that highly unlikely since that is veering into Clockwork Orange territory.

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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security

Robotmod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36508
Posted: 19 July 2020 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Yes.  Source please.
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Neil Lindholm
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 January 2005
Location: China
Posts: 4944
Posted: 19 July 2020 at 1:04am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Found the source. Looks like a rogue doctor. 


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