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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 732
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 9:46am | IP Logged | 1
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Yes, that's the point that many feminists are making - that gender roles or perceived norms are the product of social conditioning, but sex is something quite distinct, immutable and biological.
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Jim Muir Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 26 June 2007 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1391
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 11:17am | IP Logged | 2
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<<Except there are such things as XY females and XX males and XXY males...>>
Yes there are. But these are the rarities, the edge cases. But you knew that.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 136691
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 11:30am | IP Logged | 3
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The internet is the place where extremes are rolled onto center court to support an argument.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14938
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:15pm | IP Logged | 4
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<<Except there are such things as XY females and XX males and XXY males...>>
Yes there are. But these are the rarities, the edge cases. But you knew that. -----
Oh, don't give me that shit. The point is that genetics alone is not sufficient to determine sex. Genes, the expression of genes, exposure to hormones in the uterine environment, the body's sensitivity to sex hormones all play a factor in sex, gender, and sexual orientation. There are a lot of steps along the way where sexual development can be influenced and trying to reduce everything to chromosomes is reductionist.
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Michael Roberts Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 14938
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 2:57pm | IP Logged | 5
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QUOTE:
| that gender roles or perceived norms are the product of social conditioning, but sex is something quite distinct, immutable and biological. |
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I can only speak for myself, but my willingness, or lack thereof, to conform to gender roles remains separate and distinct from my identity as a male. I never once considered that I'm not a male because I liked some things that were "feminine" or disinterested in some things that were "masculine". I trust transgender individuals can understand the difference between gender roles and gender identity as well.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2287
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| Posted: 17 July 2020 at 6:07pm | IP Logged | 6
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Steven>> immutable and biological.<<
"immutable" as in "nothing can change it"? You ought to look into CRISPR. I can say without a hint of hyperbole that it's one of the most powerful technologies humanity has stumbled on because it can be used to decided after the fact what any part of a genome can be.
If you aren't into dry research papers, here's a fun episode of John Oliver's "Last Week Tonight" that took a peek: Link
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Steven Brake Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 January 2016 Posts: 732
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| Posted: 18 July 2020 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 7
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@Conrad:
Can CRISPR change a human's sex after they've been born? Or is it something that's done - or can be done, if the technology is still being developed - to the embryo while it's in the womb?
If it does become possible to physically change sex, I wonder how many transpeople will use it? Something that annoys, or even infuriates, many feminists about transwomen is that they seem to retain their male biology, and reduce being female to pretty superficial characteristics - wearing make-up and a wig, and putting on a dress.
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Conrad Teves Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014 Location: United States Posts: 2287
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| Posted: 18 July 2020 at 5:09pm | IP Logged | 8
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Steven>>Can CRISPR change a human's sex after they've been born? Or is it something that's done - or can be done, if the technology is still being developed - to the embryo while it's in the womb?<<
At the moment, no. Experiments on humans for procedures outside curing disease may be frowned on for some time too (maybe even in China). Obviously any edits would be vastly simpler on a single cell like a fertilized ovum. However, the technology is still being aggressively developed. Due to it's utility in research, the technology has improved several generations in just a few years, an amazing pace of progress.
That said, there's things like this: Link. and more recent update ( Link). The inevitable, "yeah, but that's mice" caveats apply, but perhaps far less brute-force tinkering is required than one might imagine. The main point being that thanks to CRISPR, it may not be too long before even genetic level biological attributes become far more mutable than had ever been possible because we simply didn't have a tool.
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Stephen Churay Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 March 2009 Location: United States Posts: 8369
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| Posted: 18 July 2020 at 6:55pm | IP Logged | 9
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Interesting, did you know, that currently, human experiments are being conducted by Los Angeles county juvenile detention system, using female hormones in males as a means curing Oppositional Defiance Disorder. The juvenile inmates are not given a choice in this matter.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4944
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| Posted: 18 July 2020 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 10
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Would love to see a link to that story. I find that highly unlikely since that is veering into Clockwork Orange territory.
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Matt Reed Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004 Posts: 36508
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| Posted: 19 July 2020 at 12:08am | IP Logged | 11
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Yes. Source please.
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Neil Lindholm Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 January 2005 Location: China Posts: 4944
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| Posted: 19 July 2020 at 1:04am | IP Logged | 12
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Found the source. Looks like a rogue doctor.
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