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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

…if I had a working time machine and could go back and whisper in my ear.

• When Shooter’s Whim of Iron demanded that all stories be single issues, Roger Stern and I were caught several pages into what we planned as a three issue story in CAPTAIN AMERICA. Very reasonably we told Shooter we would be happy to start doing single issue stories as soon as we finished that story—which we offered to compress into two issues. But Shooter insisted the single issue stories would start immediately, with whatever issues were currently in the works. Roger quit in protest (plus some other reasons of which I was unaware at the time). Jim Salicrup, the editor, offered me the writing job, but I felt I had to support Rog, so I left, too.

If I had known then what I know now, I would have convinced Rog to stay, we would have set aside the finished pages, and done a few single issue stories until the Whim blew over, as it invariably did.

• Another (infamous) example of the Whim of Iron, when Shooter saw what Chris Claremont and I had done in X-MEN 137, he claimed to have had no idea what we were planning and ordered our story changed. Jean Grey, for her crimes, was to be “taken to a prison asteroid to be horribly tortured for all eternity.”

That sounded to me like an incredibly misogynistic Legion of Superheroes story, prompting me to utter the immortal words “F**k that, I’d rather kill her.” *

Looking back, I wish Chris and I had just done what Shooter ordered, and a few issues later had the X-Men rescue Jean.

• And now the biggie. When Dick Giordano called to offer me Superman, I wish I’d said no.

There are some who don’t believe this, but it’s true. The Superman experience was one of the most unpleasant of my career—and it continues, as people at DC continue to find ways to chip away at what little is left of what I did.

_________

* Shooter’s version is that he ordered the death of Phoenix, causing me to protest loudly. That was never the case.

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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 770
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 4:15pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

JB - if you hadn't left for SUPERMAN - do you think you would have eventually ended up at DC on a different project?
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 4:36pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Hard to say. DC was such a different environment.
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Craig Earl
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 13 July 2019
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1478
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

That CAPTAIN AMERICA run made me love the character more than I thought I could. It's a shame that it ended like it did.

I've always been more of a Marvel guy but hearing about the experience with SUPERMAN is a shocker to me (I instantly think of JB's SUPERMAN before any other).

As a poor misguided reader, I used to think that that comic book writers and artists have the best job in the world. Marvel UK was based in my home town of Sevenoaks when I was a teenager and I had plans to work there one day - doing anything to get on the ladder to greatness!

As it happened, they relocated before I reached employable age. 

Did I save myself from a world of crushing disappointment...? 
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Paul Wills
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 18 August 2018
Location: United States
Posts: 928
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 5:18pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

I love reading the behind-the-scenes revelations of the industry - one of the great things about this forum.
As a fan of any medium (comics, music, movies) I never understood why executives think they know what the fans should get. Most of the time the artist knows what their doing - that's why they have a following. If I had to choose between what the artist wants to put out and what the executive wants, of course I choose the artist.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

There is no real debate that Shooter’s interference pushed Chris and me to create a better story than what we had planned. Unfortunately, 100 years later that story continues to cast a wide, deep shadow over Marvel—and, indeed, the industry as a whole.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 5:27pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

I think Superman would've been a lot worse off. I take it there was a decluttering movement at DC with Crisis and Superman had the most excess baggage I think of any character (being the oldest that would make sense)... it was back to the roots for Batman, Wonder Woman and Superman in particular (but also Aquaman). I think Batman was weakened and actually got more cluttered in terms of origin, but Wonder Woman and Superman were definitely stronger, and all three revitalized with improved sales.

Someone else would've done Superman and maybe found other ways of de-Julius Schwartzing the barnacles from the hull, but I can't imagine it would've been better. Lois Lane was definitely improved, Krypton a more interesting place and culture... I have to admit, I hated change but was I buying the Superman family books? Just some Actions with Gil Kane art; the daring 'new' Supergirl I hadn't supported past #2. Why did Infantino do so many heroines titles? I really got Infantino-ed out by that point (might have been Vosburg-ed out as well). They might as well have killed them it seems (and they sure seemed to be to me at the time).

Captain America #247-255 are a real treasure, especially the two Baron Blood Hammer-like issues! Marvel was better than DC because of two, three or longer stories which DC rarely seemed to do for a long time. To go to none is an extreme and to go to multi-title sagas of twenty parts or whatnot is also an extreme... and yet it was Shooter who had the very long drawn out Korvac business in The Avengers, maybe he should've just spoken for himself as a writer? And then he went into all that Secret Wars crossover business, twice, shoved down the throats almost line wide which I really disliked (maybe The Beyonder and Korvac appeal to someone but I had enough of them very quickly, and Woodgod... Paladin... as his other notable creations of the '70s? There seem to be more Satana fans that those two put together I figure.

Editors who get in the way of creation are not really being editors to me, I'll never understand this putting 'their stamp' on everything idea... unless to assign well and keep books on schedule (the latter of which Shooter seems to have been decent at), and the basic housekeeping of proofreading of course.

I don't think any single individual was going to keep comics from heading into a more insider fan-centric, higher priced, as well as supposedly more mature (read extreme and explicit as well as pointlessly sexual as often as not) direction.

Blah blah blah... oh well, thanks for a place to express this stuff. :^)
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 770
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 5:33pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I can't imagine Superman without JB's influence (that was the Superman I started with, outside of the cartoons).

I wish I could imagine a Superman without Frank Miller's influence.
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Sheila Friedland
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 11 July 2022
Location: United States
Posts: 57
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 5:38pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Mr. Byrne, can you elaborate on why the Superman experience was so bad?

I've heard you say that you resented the lack of support from DC; specifically that they were still marketed the Garcia-Lopez art on merchandise.  Is this correct?   Why would they not market your art of Superman?  What other things showed the lack of support?  Making Action Comics a weekly?

Also, isn't it inevitable that your work would be chipped away after 40 years?  But I still think "your" Superman is far more alive in current iterations than say the "E1" Superman predecessor.  After you left, Editor Mike Carlin and the super-teams hewed very closely to your vision and Carlin was very protective of the rebooted Superman; so much so that he blocked Waid/Morrison/Hitch from taking over in 2000.


I am very interested in your answers because "The Man of Steel" was a *true* BIG EVENT in a very exciting time!  Probably the summit of your career in terms of notoriety and prestige.  DC certainly supported it by promoting it heavily, having you on a TV talk show, and your art featured on Time Magazine for the 50th anniversary.

And IIRC, you've said DC didn't block any of your ideas, but just axed your idea to have Lara give birth to Kal-El on Earth.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 6:02pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Mr. Byrne, can you elaborate on why the Superman experience was so bad?

•••

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James Johnson
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 March 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 2207
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 8:20pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

JB,

After your SUPERMAN run, you returned to Marvel.

What was your experience with the editorial staff returning a little over 2 years later?

With Jim Shooter gone, were you expecting things would have been better?

Thanks!
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
Posted: 21 September 2023 at 9:04pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Pretty much like I never left.
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