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Peter Martin
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 16130
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 2:27pm | IP Logged | 1
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And I'm totally with Trevor -- Mike Zeck was a big part of it (didn't enjoy the Layton issues nearly as much) and Secret Wars II didn't work for me at all.
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 770
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 2
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I came into SECRET WARS entirely via back issues, and bounced off of it within the first few issues. At that point, I'd read a lot of other back issues, and the characterization in SECRET WARS seemed really different than what I was used to. Had a very similar situation with how Starlin wrote a lot of the "non-Starlin" characters in INFINITY GAUNTLET (though I read that one as it came out).
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 3
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I’ve told before the story of flying back to NYC from a con in n Atlanta[?], at the airport of which I was approached by a father who asked me to assure his young son, traveling on my flight, got safely back home to his mother in New York. I was wearing a Marvel jacket, and somehow this made me seem trustworthy, I guess. During the flight I showed the kid some xeroxes of my pages I’d taken with me to display at my table. He was about 8, and clearly did not understand the process by which comics were produced. But he did recognize the Fantastic Four—or most of them. He had no idea who Sue was. She had not appeared in SECRET WARS. This was my first inkling that SW, contrary to Shooter’s claim, had not actually tapped into a previously untapped audience.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 3:39pm | IP Logged | 4
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I came into SECRET WARS entirely via back issues, and bounced off of it within the first few issues. At that point, I'd read a lot of other back issues, and the characterization in SECRET WARS seemed really different than what I was used to.••• Altho SECRET WARS had begun as nothing more than a toy promotion, at the first whisper of the unexpected tsunami of sales, Shooter started using the series to show us all How to Do It Right. Literally. He would take copies of the latest issues of other titles and jot notes in the margins. “See SECRET WARS #(whatever) for how to do this right!” Often without actually specifying what “this” was. It was the beginning of the end.
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Sheila Friedland
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 July 2022
Location: United States
Posts: 57
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 4:04pm | IP Logged | 5
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Jim, that quote your provided was to what my questions were referring to. And it was NOT in on this site in the FAQ section as far as I can tell. And I *did* correctly summarize what is there.
Regardless, that's the whole point of my questions; I'm interested!
From my anecdotal remembrance, Mr. Byrne's revamp *was* heavily promoted, embraced by many if not most fans, and sold extremely well. Like I said, tons of advertising in the comics and fanzines, Mr. Byrne on the Today show, and his art on Time Magazine. So, that's why I'm having trouble squaring Mr. Byrne saying he received no support or promotion from DC.
Now when Mr. Byrne says they continued to license the "previous" Superman I assume he means the artwork by Garcia-Lopez on the mass merchandise products. Is that a correct assumption of that meaning? If so, my very simple and direct question is: WHY? Mr. Byrne's Superman is totally recognizable and classic, so why wouldn't they put his art out there as well? Doesn't make sense to me. No one would confuse Byrne's Superman with a "different" Superman.
And also, was making Action a weekly part of the lack of support? Why did DC do that exactly?
I really don't get why this is such an offensive question and the people calling me a " troll" just need to look in the mirror.
Edited by Sheila Friedland on 27 September 2023 at 4:09pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134275
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 6
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This reminds me of what, JB, you regularly quote from Stan Lee: never give the fans what they think they want.••• Stan knew the business. Comics are a pretty much unique experience. And part of that uniqueness is pushing the boundaries. Hardly anyone knew they wanted the Fantastic Four until Stan and Jack gave them to them. And it’s significant that when Stan and Jack tried to give the fans what they wanted, in the form of the Hulk, the book tanked.
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 770
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 4:51pm | IP Logged | 7
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JB - why was Sue left out of SECRET WARS?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 8
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She was pregnant.
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Jason K Fulton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 770
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 5:01pm | IP Logged | 9
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JB - If you had been offered to write/draw SECRET WARS, would you have done it?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 5:14pm | IP Logged | 10
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As noted, SECRET WARS in its initial concept was a toy promotion. Can’t think of much that would have appealed to me less.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4635
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 5:24pm | IP Logged | 11
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There had been a three issue mini-series before Secret Wars titled Contest Of Champions with two scoops of superheroes in every issue. I bought 'em all running into the first one on the corner shop spinner rack, remember a few multinational new characters were introduced but forget the rest. Maybe it sold well enough to start a ball rolling for the 12 issue Secret Wars... ka-ching? I did buy the first issue at least and the artwork was decent (I still think I later read Mike Zeck saying how Shooter kept making him redraw as he rewrote0 but I definitely ditched it as a too obvious milking of the fans.
Reaction at the time via fanzines (Buyer's Guide, Journal, some others), and some fellow (older) readers was it should've stayed a secret! Unlike the Contest mini-series they also made sure to hype this for all they could, the hard sell put me off before even seeing the first one. In a way maybe I shouldn't criticize because I never read most of them, would find out in the individual titles I read when something 'big' was changed by it (and doubt I liked that anymore than the original hard sell hyping).
I guess the Shooter formula must have something to it as later Valiant seemed to be all the rage with collectors despite some fairly limited older characters being revived to create yet another comic 'universe'. I've usually liked his Legion of Super-Heroes too (they milked the death of Ferro Lad a bit way back in the mid '60s and I'm not sure there were any deaths of a super character before then). Where Stan Lee entertained you with his hype, seemed fairly honest about it, Jim Shooter felt more devious and the pay off was usually fizzled out into a later revival that would also fizzle... like the whole Korvac 'saga' fizzled out with a tennis player and his pin-up blonde wife in an expensive home in upstate New York. The Beyonder white suited disco dancer type guy was similarly underwhelming visually and overblown in terms of alluded to powers... seeing him on a comic I normally bought actually made me skip that issue or drop the title. I totally did not 'get' the Beyonder as appealing nor what Korvac became. Needless to say the 'New Universe' line was something I made sure not to investigate. I was well on making my way out when Secret Wars II (not Fred Hembeck or Sergio Aragones) was destroying the Marvel universe for me having already pretty much dropped DC other than Swamp Thing or some not super-hero universe involved titles (and thus missed Man Of Steel although knowing about it).
Why does Jim Starlin work on me with cosmic scale 'events' and Shooter not... I have no idea, but one guy made Thanos ever more interesting while the other made Korvac progressively as boring as could be imagined.
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 27 September 2023 at 5:25pm
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 31542
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| Posted: 27 September 2023 at 6:26pm | IP Logged | 12
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Sheila, ACTION went weekly after JB was off the book.
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