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Eric Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 October 2013 Location: United States Posts: 2394
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 11:35am | IP Logged | 1
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Here's another account, from ALTER EGO #58 from 2006 (18 years ago, 11 years before Len Wein's passing). This fits right in with the Sanderson interview, the YouTube interview I saw, and the recent news accounts. Roy Thomas has not changed his story in at least 18 years.
The previous page of A-E and the truncated top paragraph here talk about Roy wanting to bring back X-Men (which he famously worked on with Neal Adams and others) as an international team, since Marvel now had an international fanbase. The next paragraph likens them to the Blackhawks, an international team that Golden Age fan Roy was well familiar with.
Three things of interest here: 1. Wolverine appeared in INCREDIBLE HULK #180 "at the request of Thomas as editor"--this sounds like the character was complete enough to give Wein something to work with.
2. "Thomas approached writer Len Wein about creating a Canadian mutant with that name"--I'll be fair, that sounds like a point in the Wein column!
3. As mentioned elsewhere, Thomas "briefly considered having him called The Badger"--a funny aside, but consider what it means: naming something is part of the act of creation. And John Romita designed Wolverine, based on the name. From what I've seen on other characters from that era of Marvel, it seems that the important designs come before the individual issues get written.
The order of events seems to be: 1. Roy Thomas as editor-in-chief wants to increase Canadian & international sales. 2. He comes up with a short, hot-tempered Canadian hero with claws called the Wolverine (while planning for a mutant version of the Blackhawks for an X-Men revival). 3. John Romita (as happened so many times before and after) is called in to design the Wolverine. 4. HULK editor Thomas assigns "one of Marvel's best writers" Len Wein to take his idea and write a story, while artist Herb Trimpe takes Romita's design and makes him live. 5. Later, the Wolverine character is made a founding member of the new international X-Men team (which is not all that unpredictable since all mutants--especially in the early days--end up with the X-Men at some point or other), a revival long planned and set in motion by Editor-in-Chief Roy Thomas.
Giving credit to Roy Thomas for his contribution is not taking it away from Len Wein, it's just adding to the mix. Failure is an orphan, but "Success has many fathers"--and sometimes it takes 4 or 5 or more people to collectively create something as popular and beloved and unique as Wolverine.
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Steve Coates Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2014 Location: Canada Posts: 818
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 12:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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Really? You are going to tout out an article from a magazine edited by Roy Thomas as evidence? Really?
Perhaps one of the easiest ways to be consistent is to get your words in print, so you can review what you said before saying it again.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16029
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 1:22pm | IP Logged | 3
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QUOTE:
Really? You are going to tout out an article from a magazine edited by Roy Thomas as evidence? Really? |
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Put it this way. Earlier in this thread, people having been levelling an accusation against Thomas that he waited until everyone involved was dead to make these claims.
Whatever little weight you might want to give to that article, at the very least it proves that isn't the case.
Personally, I think it counts for little. Taking an animal's name and saying it could be a superhero name is, as Thomas himself says in one of those interviews, a trivial thing.
The claws; the healing power; the costume; the attitude -- these are the main things that constitute Wolverine. It tends to lean heavily in favour of Len Wein and John Romita as the creators.
Edited by Peter Martin on 03 April 2024 at 1:23pm
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Rodrigo castellanos Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 July 2012 Location: Uruguay Posts: 1527
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 2:13pm | IP Logged | 4
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Whatever little weight you might want to give to that article, at the very least it proves that isn't the case.
But it is indeed the case.
The formal claim is happening now, when everyone else involved is indeed dead.
And nobody "impartial" saw those articles & interviews and said: "Wow, Roy Thomas should get credit on Wolverine". It's an editor's job, nothing more.
The claws; the healing power; the costume; the attitude -- these are the main things that constitute Wolverine. It tends to lean heavily in favour of Len Wein and John Romita as the creators.
Obviously agree on that one.
And, as I said before, I find the timing of the claim more offensive than the claim itself (which I also find offensive, but not as much).
Other comics creators seem to agree, haven't seen one yet back Thomas on this one. That I also find telling.
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16029
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 3:08pm | IP Logged | 5
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Another article, this one with Thomas' response: LINK
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Steve Coates Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 November 2014 Location: Canada Posts: 818
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 6
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Have you ever watched the tinting of house paint? It starts with a can of base, which can mostly be described as white and of a certain finish or sheen. To make the selected colour a formula is used for the specific base and discrete amounts of the tinting are added to the can. During the addition of the tints, there is a very high contrast between the tint colours and the base colour. Each tint colour can be easily discerned. The can is sealed and placed in a shaker to mix the tint with the base. Opening the can will reveal a completely different colour.
Wait 50 years and then try to unmix the paint.
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 5:47pm | IP Logged | 7
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Was Wolverine's healing power there in the Hulk comics? I have the three facsimiles but I don't remember that being in there. He is called little by the Hulk and seems to measure weight in stones.
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Ron Grant Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 December 2016 Location: Canada Posts: 243
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 6:08pm | IP Logged | 8
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Wolverine was created by Andy Olsen who submitted the character as part of a contest by the marvel publication FOOM .Marvel used the contest to swipe ideas from children Roy Thomas is getting credit why not him?
Edited by Ron Grant on 04 April 2024 at 4:23pm
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Peter Martin Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 17 March 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 16029
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 7:44pm | IP Logged | 9
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Seriously, can people here not work out how to post a link that actually works?
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Rebecca Jansen Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2018 Location: Canada Posts: 4635
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 7:49pm | IP Logged | 10
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It looks like Andy Olsen also created Deathlock.
Anyone remember a role playing game named Champions? You created your own superheroes for it, sort of like people sent in their superhero to be used in Dian H For Hero (and I loved the Stu Potts cartoon showing Wein and Wolfman presenting some Dickensian workhouse children with t-shirts in a Comics Journal).
I can see designing a unique costume as more important than the name, but really, it's a writer and artist drawing the story that puts the spark of life, if there's going to be one, to something. Ultimately I guess it's up to those directly involved to work out what they can while what we think of that probably doesn't mean a thing.
Q: Does Wally Wood get a credit for the all red Daredevil costume? I actually had #6-on at one time and remember feeling that #6 with the yellow felt so old and out of place looking maybe I should've gotten rid of that one issue.
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Jason Czeskleba Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Posts: 4649
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 8:42pm | IP Logged | 11
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JB wrote:
Stan got the name “Spider-Man” from a character called “Silver Spider”? |
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Nope. After Silver Spider failed to sell to Harvey, Simon and Kirby reworked the idea into "Spiderman." Simon created a prototype logo, but apparently not much else (if anything) was done with it. The logo still survives (it is pictured in this article).
Did Stan independently come up with the name Spider-Man, or did Kirby mention the name from this earlier project to him? We will never know for certain (which is why I said Stan "may have gotten the name" from Simon and Kirby). Given the similarities between the Silver Spider story and Ditko's report of the rejected original Spider-Man story, I lean towards believing that Kirby did contribute the name. But as noted, we can't say for sure.
The important point is that the name doesn't really matter that much. What matters is what was done to flesh out and elaborate the name into an actual character, and that work was done by Lee and Ditko, who are rightly credited as Spider-Man's creators. Although it is worth noting that Stan himself generally advocated for the opposite position, asserting that the the person who comes up with the initial idea is the sole creator, regardless of how sparse the original idea might be and regardless of how much is added by those who flesh out that idea.
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Michael Penn Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 April 2006 Location: United States Posts: 12793
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Posted: 03 April 2024 at 9:29pm | IP Logged | 12
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Couldn't just have stopped at co-crediting Ditko & Lee...?
(Also, did Lee actually assert those two unlimited "regardless" clauses?)
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