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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 841
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 9:15am | IP Logged | 1 post reply

This ruling definitely helps Trump, but I don't see it as the sweeping victory many are characterizing it as.  

The court determined that Trump has varying degrees of immunity from prosecution for official acts he undertook as the president.

The case was remanded back to the trial court to determine which actions in the indictment were "official acts" and gave only this guidance:

When the President acts pursuant to constitutional and statutory authority he takes official actions to perform the functions of his office.  Therefore, the first step in determining whether an act is "official" is to analyze whether the President had the authority to undertake the act.

Any acts that are "manifestly or palpably beyond his authority" are by definition, not official acts, and would not be protected.

The ruling also separates official acts of the President into two categories: (1) official acts taken "within his conclusive and preclusive constitutional authority," meaning acts that are part of the core of his official duties, and (2) acts on the "outer perimeter of the President's official responsibilities."  

The Court ruled that the president has absolute immunity from prosecution for the first type of official acts, but only presumptive immunity regarding the second type of official acts.  Trump's lawyers argued for absolute immunity from both.

Presumptive immunity is rebuttable.  That means he can be charged for official acts where "the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition...would pose no danger of intrusion upon the authority and functions of the executive branch."

With these parameters in place, the Court briefly considered the nature of the allegations in the criminal case.

First, the court looked at allegations related to Trump's interactions with the Justice Department:

"The indictment alleges that as part of their conspiracy to overturn the legitimate results of the 2020 presidential election, Trump and his co-conspirators attempted to leverage the Justice Department’s power and authority to convince certain States to replace their legitimate electors with Trump’s fraudulent slates of electors. According to the indictment, Trump met with the Acting AttorneyGeneral and other senior Justice Department and White House officials to discuss investigating purported election fraud and sending a letter from the Department to those States regarding such fraud. The indictment further alleges that after the Acting Attorney General resisted Trump’s requests, Trump repeatedly threatened to replace him."

The Court held that "The Executive Branch has 'exclusive authority and absolute discretion' to decide which crimes to investigateand prosecute, including with respect to allegations of election crime...And the President’s 'management of the Executive Branch' requires him to have 'unrestricted power to removethe most important of his subordinates'—such as the Attorney General—'in their most important duties.' The indictment’s allegations that the requested investigations were shams or proposed for an improper purpose do not divest the President of exclusive authority over the investigative and prosecutorial functions of the Justice Department and its officials. Because the President cannot be prosecuted for conduct within his exclusive constitutional authority, Trump is absolutely immune from prosecution for the alleged conduct involving his discussions with Justice Department officials."

This part of the ruling is the biggest win for Trump.  On one hand, I think its important to note the court only expressly extended immunity to cover his "discussions" with the Justice Department.  Had the department moved forward with "sham investigations" that would seemingly fall under the heading of unofficial acts, because using the Department of Justice to perpetuate fraud is beyond the constitutional or statutory authority of the office.

On the other hand, I disagree with the court here, because in my view, Trump's conduct went beyond "discussions" in that he gave directions to Justice Dept officials (which they did not follow).  In my view, if the trial court can prove fraudulent intent, then just directing the Justice Department to participate should be considered an unofficial act, because its beyond his authority.  Unfortunately, this decision makes that conclusion impossible, because the Court said that trial courts can't consider the president's motive.

Regarding Trump pressuring Pence not to certify the election results, the court said Trump would only have presumptive immunity; meaning he can be prosecuted if doing so would not pose a danger of intrusion upon the authority and functions of the executive branch.

I would argue it does not, and I think the court would agree, because they characterized Pence's role as only "ceremonial."

Next, the court looked at Trump's interactions with parties who are outside the executive branch:

"In particular, the indictmentalleges that Trump and his co-conspirators attempted to convince certain state officials that election fraud had tainted the popular vote count in their States, and thus electoral votes for Trump’s opponent needed to be changed to electoral votes for Trump. After Trump failedto convince those officials to alter their state processes, he and his co-conspirators allegedly developed and effectuated a plan to submitfraudulent slates of Presidential electors to obstruct the certification proceeding. On Trump’s view, the alleged conduct qualifies as officialbecause it was undertaken to ensure the integrity and proper administration of the federal election. As the Government sees it, however, Trump can point to no plausible source of authority enabling the President to take such actions."

Here, the court remanded to the trial court to make a factual determination of which side is right.  However, if the state prevails on its argument that Trump lacked authority to undertake these actions, then they are unofficial acts, and subject to prosecution without immunity.

Finally, the court looked at allegations concerning Trump's public comments and tweets on Jan 6, and determined that if Trump was speaking as a political candidate or the head of a political party, his comments would not be official acts, and would not be protected.  It is up to the trial court to determine, based on context, whether that is the case.


Edited by John Wickett on 02 July 2024 at 9:20am
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Brian Miller
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Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 30971
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 11:24am | IP Logged | 2 post reply

So, if POTUS were caught plotting a coup with his Attorney General, these
actions and conversations would be protected by immunity.
*****
So, if POTUS called someone like say, Seal Team 6, and instructed them to
take out an insurrectionist, that conversation would be protected by
immunity.
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Steven Queen
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Joined: 28 February 2020
Location: United States
Posts: 906
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 12:20pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

The check-and-balance is that sitting presidents can still be impeached by Congress and convicted of treason.

What is an official act vs. unofficial now goes to the lower courts.

Plotting a political rival's assassination is just fantasy/projection.  Seems more of a page from a Marxist/Fascist playbook.

The Supreme Court is a stop-gap to prevent abuses of power.  Going after a political rival in the courts just before an election was one such egregious abuse.  The action triggered the reaction.
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Steven Myers
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Joined: 10 June 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5646
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Going after a political rival in the courts just before an election was one such egregious abuse.  The action triggered the reaction.

When did this happen? Trump is accused of plotting to overturn the election and related crimes, not going after a rival.
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Dave Kopperman
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Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3225
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Steve, you've correctly analyzed the Supreme Court's thinking on this. But you've missed the point of America.
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Casey Sager
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 678
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Total fantasy, like when Trump suggested that General Mark Milley should be executed for treason.

You see it as going after a political rival in the courts, many see it as a former President running again to avoid prosecution.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6277
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 3:45pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

So, if POTUS were caught plotting a coup with his Attorney General, these
actions and conversations would be protected by immunity.
*****
So, if POTUS called someone like say, Seal Team 6, and instructed them to
take out an insurrectionist, that conversation would be protected by
immunity.
**
And not only would the conversation be protected by immunity, but prosecutors would never be able to consider and present his motives to a Grand Jury. So, if Seal Team 6 does happen to execute this target, the entire operation would, at worst, result in punishment for Seal Team 6. POTUS is totally protected.
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Charles Valderrama
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4737
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 3:58pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I wonder if maybe, just maybe instead of everyone feeling like they need to have their opinion heard about Biden, we can focus more on the actual and very real threat of Trump?

Sure, some want Biden to stay, some want him out. Continuing this conversation daily is the real recipe for disaster.

Let's talk about what a threat and danger Trump is. Anyone read up on Project 2025? 

If the messaging stayed on this convicted criminal CONSTANTLY, anyone could beat him... and that includes a "senile", tired old man who, for the record, happens to have an impressive list of accomplishments to brag about.

-C!


Edited by Charles Valderrama on 02 July 2024 at 4:09pm
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4737
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 4:08pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Here's the most simple fact to remember: If you elect every possible Democrat... and they win in 2024, the opportunity to vote will be secured in 2028.

No one in their right mind can say that about Trump if he wins.

-C!
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 841
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 8:17pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

"So, if POTUS called someone like say, Seal Team 6, and instructed them to take out an insurrectionist, that conversation would be protected by
immunity."

Not the way I read it.  Since the President is the Commander in Chief, an order given to Seal Team 6 would be protected by absolute immunity if it was an official act.

But applying the direction given by the court, to determine whether the order was an official act or not, the question would be whether the President has the authority under the constitution or a statute to assassinate American citizens without due process.  Since he does not, this would be an unofficial act, making it unprotected.
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Steve De Young
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Joined: 01 April 2008
Location: United States
Posts: 3496
Posted: 02 July 2024 at 11:45pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

This ruling basically changes nothing. It's just describing what has already been the case. U.S. Presidents have put an entire race into internment camps, sent the National Guard in to kill U.S. citizens, killed U.S. citizens abroad with drone strikes, invaded sovereign countries without a Congressional declaration of war, etc. etc. etc. None of which was ever held to legal scrutiny.

The idea that suddenly this would give a re-elected Trump more power than he had the first time, or than Biden has now, is just fear-mongering by the Dems. Making Trump out as a threat to democracy is the only way to get people to vote for a cadaver. Which is really a shame, because Trump is awful in so many ways. He just isn't Darkseid.




Edited by Steve De Young on 02 July 2024 at 11:46pm
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6277
Posted: 03 July 2024 at 1:43am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

@Steven DeYoung— why did Nixon resign? Why did anyone think Nixon was
particularly bad? Was Nixon Darkseid?

This ruling changes our nation in the single fundamental that yesterday we
assumed there was a theoretic rule of law that would be enforceable if a
corrupt PoTUS used the power of his office to enrich himself and harm the
nation.

Today we know that is not true.

The idea that we’ve always been a nation of corrupt intentions around the
world is just ignorant nihilism. Trump has said he will fill the government
with loyalists to corrupt the entire system for his benefit. He doesn’t need
to be “Darkseid” to do a better job at everything he tried the first time
around.

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