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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 06 November 2024 at 9:11pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

The Tariffs are a way for Trump to use his office to beat the business community like a rented mule until it kisses his ring.

It's a crucial step toward Russo-Hungarian style Oligarchy.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3502
Posted: 06 November 2024 at 9:40pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

I note some celebration about the states that added abortion rights to their constitutions, and certainty that this is going to protect those rights. I'm vaguely reminded of Mubarak being deposed during the Egyptian phase of the Arab Spring - since the military government remained in power, it was clear that it wasn't even a Pyrrhic victory. We had laws on the books in New York giving us gun protections that were taken away by the activist Roberts court. These state constitutional enshrinations (?) are one minor Supreme Court ruling away from being worth less than the parchment they weren't written on.

One of the things I regard as a sign that we may be able to salvage something is that those swing states (excluding Georgia and Nevada) - North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona, and Michigan - all have popular Democratic governors, and many have Democratic Senators and Representatives. It's a diviiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiided nation and the GOP will most likely end up in complete control of all three branches of the Federal Government, and the power imbalance is steep, but the Democrats still have some mighty levers they can use.


Edited by Dave Kopperman on 06 November 2024 at 9:52pm
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 06 November 2024 at 9:44pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Jozef: I hope everyone realizes she was a bad candidate... etc.

**
Hope for whatever you want, but Orange Jesus is not going to be the man you seem to think. Congratulations. You're going to get what you voted for.
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Scott Wagahoff
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Joined: 10 October 2019
Location: United States
Posts: 157
Posted: 06 November 2024 at 10:27pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

I too believe Republicans have no real idea what they've let loose, and look forward to them getting theirs....unfortunately, we'll be dealing with that too and probably in worse ways.
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 06 November 2024 at 11:13pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Center-to-Left leaning Americans are now in a race to see what we can protect and preserve while hurricane Orangetan roars across the American project for the next 4 years.
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 875
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 2:29am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

"Yeah, I call BS on 'spurious prosecutions.'"

I agree; especially the NY case.  Trump clearly committed crimes.  As for why voters chose not to hold him accountable, I think there are at least three reasons (all related).

First, Democrats overplayed their hand, by characterizing Trump as an existential threat to Democracy.  Oprah Winfrey's comments  immediately come to mind as the most extreme example ("If we don't show up tomorrow, its entirely possible that we will never have the opportunity to cast a ballot again.")  Clearly, the majority of voters did not find these types of statements to be credible, and I think that sentiment hurt the effectiveness of legitimate criticisms of Trump.

Second, the fact of Trump's guilt doesn't mean prosecutions weren't politically motivated.  I'm not saying they were, but that was a widespread perception among Republicans and some independents.  Democrats are at least partly to blame.  Pelosi, Schiff, and others vastly oversold the eventual outcome of the Mueller investigation.  More recently, the discovery of classified documents in Biden's garage, and how lightly that was taken by liberal talking heads in comparison to Trump doing the same thing wasn't helpful. 

At the end of the day, what Trump has been actually convicted of (misclassifying business records related to payments to Stormy Daniels) was not perceived as a serious crime (certainly not one that would threaten our democracy) so voters were unwilling to reward or normalize what they perceived as the weaponization of the Justice Department.

Last, uninformed voters may have simply concluded that "he didn't go to jail, so he must not have done anything that bad."

In addition to the foregoing, I think Harris was an extraordinarily weak candidate.  I disagree with a lot of what Jozef said, but I do agree that she was among the poorest performing candidates in the last election, and would likely not have survived a primary.  Unfortunately, Dems were stuck with her because of the way Biden's candidacy ended, and the timing of his withdrawal.  

Living in a battleground state (Nevada) I've been bombarded with ads for several weeks leading into the election, and I found her messaging to be ill conceived and ineffective.  Nevertheless, I was still surprised that she didn't convincingly carry the state.  The population of Clark County (Vegas) is 2.3M, and the rest of the state is only around 860,000.  So Vegas usually determines the outcome of national races, and all of our senators/congressmen have been blue for years. Harris should have won here (Very tellingly, Nevada passed a ballot initiative to create a constitutional right to abortion by almost 70%, but Harris is still behind Trump).The fact that she hasn't (yet), and the fact that Trump is winning the popular vote nationally tell me this wasn't just a case of MAGA extremists being brainwashed.  Harris failed to effectively make her closing argument.  Consequently, Trump gained ground among almost every demographic, and Harris did not get the turnout she needed to repeat Biden's success.




Edited by John Wickett on 07 November 2024 at 2:32am
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 8:09am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

John: In addition to the foregoing, I think Harris was an extraordinarily weak
candidate. I disagree with a lot of what Jozef said, but I do agree that she
was among the poorest performing candidates in the last election, and
would likely not have survived a primary. Unfortunately, Dems were stuck
with her because of the way Biden's candidacy ended, and the timing of his
withdrawal.

**
There’s nothing “extraordinary” about her weakness as a candidate. If she
were the same person, only white and male, you would not say that. She got
more votes than Hillary and Hillary beat Trump by millions of votes.

But this time, voters were even more determined not to have a female
POTUS. I think her gender and race played a role in the margins, but I don’t
really think any other Democrat was going to beat Trump this cycle. Trump
barely campaigned and still over-performed in every metric. This racist,
adjudicated rapist-conman is what the majority of voters wanted.
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Kevin Hagerman
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Joined: 15 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 18131
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 8:20am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

"Trump doing the same thing"
-------------
Hardly the same thing.  When President Biden's docs were discovered he turned them over straightaway and sent his lawyers looking for more, which they found and returned THEM straightaway.  President Trump was given a god-damned YEAR ("spurious prosecutions" - get out of here with that bullshit.  The DOJ bent over backward to let Trump skate) to return what he took and he repaid that patience with lies and tried to hide them.

"Last, uninformed voters may have simply concluded that 'he didn't go to jail, so he must not have done anything that bad.'"

Absolutely, spot-on.  I believe everyone should vote, because I think/hope that the engagement will lead to proficiency, but we have a lot of people - smart people; I know some and I bet you all do as well - who are, at best, uninformed.  Many are woefully misinformed.  And it's a phenomenon that seems to have regular turnover.  Dumb people come in, and either they get smarter or they go away, but what happens is dumb people rise up from the minors to take their turn being the dumb ones.

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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 11:15am | IP Logged | 9 post reply

K: Many are woefully misinformed.

**

For example, Jimmy Kimmel sent a man with a camera out on the street today and found plenty of people who didn't know that the election was over and couldn't even reliably tell us who the candidates were.

The street was Sunset Blvd. in Hollywood, CA.
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Steven Queen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 February 2020
Location: United States
Posts: 950
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

 Michael Casselman wrote:
They didn't lose, they gave it away. 15 million people from 2020 gave it away. 

I doubt that 15 million voters who wanted Biden/Harris alluvasudden became racist, misogynistic, homophobic, stopped caring about abortion rights, etc. So what. happened.

You are getting close...

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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 875
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 2:39pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"If she were the same person, only white and male, you would not say that."

Yes I would.  In contrast, I would not have said that about Obama or Hilary Clinton; both of whom I considered to be stronger candidates than Biden when they ran, despite being black or female.  IMO Biden won because of anti-Trump sentiment, more than pro-Biden enthusiasm.

Also, if you go back and look at old posts, you will see the candidate I supported until she dropped out was a woman of color (Nikki Haley).

Harris was weak because:

She was the VP in an administration with a low approval rating at a time when polling shows 70%+ of Americans think the country was moving in the wrong direction, and she prominently declared at one point that she couldn't think of anything she would have done differently from Biden. 

When she actually had to participate in the primary process (2020) her campaign performed miserably.

Her record marks her as the most liberal senator during the time when she served, so she had credibility issues when she had to run towards the center and flip-flopped on many issues.  

She lacks charisma and has difficulty connecting with audiences- does poorly in interviews.

She struggled to clearly articulate a vision and a plan for the future of the country.

Her core message was too divisive

Her policy proposals were lame (as I mentioned before, Nevada was bombarded with ads in the last few weeks of the campaign- around a third of the ad time focused on how Harris would reverse inflation by "stopping price gouging at grocery stores." 

The fact is, I think highly of Kamala Harris.  She's very smart, and appears to be an exceptional attorney.  But that skill set doesn't always translate into being a strong presidential candidate, or a successful president.  In her case, it did not appear to me that would be the case.  I don't agree that no other Democrat could have beaten Trump, but any Democrat would have struggled to mount a successful campaign in the amount of time that was left after Biden dropped out.


Edited by John Wickett on 07 November 2024 at 2:39pm
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6550
Posted: 07 November 2024 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Please.

In your mind, there is a hypothetical Democrat who would somehow NOT be
seen as connected to Biden and yet would be seen as having done better
than Harris in climbing up the Dem ranks. This person would read as less
liberal than a former prosecutor who calls for the world’s deadliest fighting
force to keep going in Gaza. This person would also do better than Harris at
interviews and connecting with people, even though Harris is undeniably far
better than “average” and was universally praised for the joy and
enthusiasm she brought to the campaign.

When you compare her to this imaginary unicorn, I guess you are not being
utterly ridiculous to give her a grade of “extraordinarily weak” — especially
if we also imagine her having the additional qualities of being a white male.

What a serious and persuasive argument—not.
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