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Topic: A Thought Experiment on the Shakespeare Authorship Question Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Steven Brake
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 714
Posted: 11 May 2025 at 6:53pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply
Mark Haslett wrote: In Elizabethan and Jacobean England, writers absolutely faced brutal consequences for politically sensitive material. 

SB replied: Like so much of Shakespeare's work, 'Richard II' is ambivalent over whether it's depicting the justified deposition of a fledgling tyrant, or the awful consequences of the usurpation of the rightful king, but, given that it had been performed since 1595, the censor obviously didn't regard it as being subversive - although it's worth noting that the deposition scene in Act IV scene 1 probably wasn't printed in full until the First Folio.

Mark Haslett wrote: The idea that a mere commoner could write incendiary plays about the fall of kings, have them staged before rebellions, and walk away untouched defies the historical pattern. 

SB replied: Augustine Phillips testified that the only reason The Lord Chamberlain's Men performed the play was because they were paid more than their usual fee to do so. None of the troupe seem to have understood that their performance was to be used to stir up support for Essex, and Elizabeth I herself obviously didn't regard them as having been complicit in his attempted rebellion.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6897
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 2:31am | IP Logged | 2 post reply
Still reading this very interesting Stratfordian book. The facts are devastating to the Stratfodian case.

The Grammar school myth is exploded by the facts:

Traditional biography says William Shakespeare attended the rigorous Stratford Grammar School — for, if he didn't get Latin instruction, then he couldn't write the works.

In 1571, William would have been seven — the age grammar schooling typically began.

But 1571 is when his father, John Shaksper, was targeted for legal action and couldn’t be found. Authorities attempted to serve him, but he had vanished from public life. That same year, John ceased attending council meetings, and by 1576, he was stripped of his civic roles entirely.

In 1571, when John Shaksper was first targeted by authorities, he was a "Senior Alderman" on the town council. He had served a term as an elected "Bailiff" - the highest office in town. But this all came crashing down.

Why?

Because in 1571, John had 20 years experience dealing illegal wool which criminally evaded paying the all-powerful crown. John started this work when he left his apprenticeship with a glover. He never opened a glove shop.

When was this again?

1571. Just when little Will was about to start that darned education.

But with his parents hiding from the Crown, risking seizure of property (tons of illegal wool) and imprisonment or house-arrest-- little Will Shaksper could not have been taking the daily 8 hour Latin college course at the local Grammar School-- the most visible institution in town — right next to the Guildhall and under civic supervision.

The idea of him going to that school is complete nonsense, contradicted by every single fact we have on the record. John Shaksper's civic position only required his attendance at specific times, and he stopped appearing at them.

Why would a man in active evasion voluntarily parade his son through the front doors of the town’s most public educational institution? No one would do that. So what evidence supports it happened? None.

John Shaksper had every reason to keep his family out of sight. And the record shows that's what he did.

And these are facts from Stratfordians! It's a fun book.
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
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Posted: 19 May 2025 at 2:36am | IP Logged | 3 post reply
For easy reference to anyone playing along--

Will Shaksper was born in 1564.

His father, John, was a wanted man by the time Will was 7 years old.

For the next ten years, John struggled, but lost almost all he had.

John Shaksper was under house arrest when Will turned 17.
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Petter Myhr Ness
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Joined: 02 July 2009
Location: Norway
Posts: 4021
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 9:23am | IP Logged | 4 post reply
Interesting, Mark. Generally I don't understand why any serious scholar would claim he went to that grammar school when there are no records or evidence that he did so. Obviously he must have had some education to be able to function as a business man, which he was, but why that particular school? It's just an assumption. We know nothing about his education. 
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134343
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 9:40am | IP Logged | 5 post reply
I went to grammar school for almost three years before we moved to Canada. By that time Greek and Latin were no longer being taught, but the curriculum was otherwise much the same would have been typical in Tudor England. Readin’, writin’ and ‘rithmatic. (Or maths, as it was called)

The problem doesn’t arise from whether young Shakesper went to the Stratford school. As the son of an alderman he would have been entitled. The problem arises from the Stratford camp elevating the school to an educational level greater than most of the universities of the time.

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Michael Penn
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Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 12914
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 11:41am | IP Logged | 6 post reply
Not for nothing did Ogburn label Shakespeare "mysterious."
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Mark Haslett
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Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6897
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 12:37pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply
JB: The problem doesn’t arise from whether young Shakesper went to the Stratford school. As the son of an alderman he would have been entitled. The problem arises from the Stratford camp elevating the school to an educational level greater than most of the universities of the time.

**

Setting aside that an Alderman on the run would not be sending his son to Grammar school, here is what a hypothetical Will Shaksper, Grammar student would learn:

Grammar school is known as the most common form of schooling for children in the Elizabethan era.

The first age group of 7-10 would be taught by ushers, junior masters or senior pupils.

They had to have basic literacy in English and Latin to gain admission.

7-10 year old boys would begin studying latin with the aid of "Lily's Latin Grammar" - a textbook written by William Lily and chosen as the sole grammar textbook for students by Henry VIII.

At age 7 students learned parts of speech.

At age 8 students learned grammar and sentence structure

At age 9 students focus on English-latin translation from Lily's Latin Grammar.

The second age group was students aged 10-14. The masters would teach these students in specific fields like literature, Greek Studies, and Arithmatic.

The yearly schedule was 44 weeks, 5 days a week.

But it was 1574 when a hypothetical Will Shaksper, eldest son of the illegal wool dealer and "Senior Alderman" in absentia would finally be taking these courses that would (ahem!) prepare him to become the greatest writer of English letters who ever lived.

1574 is when Will's father John was hitting one economic and legal crisis after another and more records are to be found that John had stopped appearing in public again.

by 1576, John was not an Alderman anymore.

So, 1571-1576 is the only time young Will could possibly have attended this Grammar school.

But he was not even eligible to go for much of that because of his father's disreputable decline.

This decline is marked by unsuccessful efforts to locate his father. How hard could that be if he was an active Alderman with a child at the Grammar school? The facts undermine the hypothesis.

Will could't even get into the school if his illiterate parents didn't somehow teach him to read first.

And with John's business fortunes turning badly against him, why would he suddenly start defying English tradition by not training his eldest son, Will, in the family business?

The facts rule out the hypothesis that Will Shaksper spent any meaningful time at the Stratford Grammar School if, indeed, he ever set foot in it.

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Steven Brake
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Joined: 01 January 2016
Posts: 714
Posted: 19 May 2025 at 3:33pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply
Mark Haslett wrote: Still reading this very interesting Stratfordian book. The facts are devastating to the Stratfordian case.

SB replied: It's impressive that Alternative Authorship theorists keep demolishing William Shakespeare's authorship, yet the overwhelming majority of people still regard him as the author.

Mark Haslett wrote: Traditional biography says William Shakespeare attended the rigorous Stratford Grammar School...

SB replied: It's true that it's generally assumed that Will attended, at least for some time, the King Edward VI School, but also that there's no absolute proof that he did...

Mark Haslett wrote: — for, if he didn't get Latin instruction, then he couldn't write the works.

SB replied:...but who makes this claim? Not Ben Jonson, for a start, who wrote in his commendatory poem in the First Folio "And though thou hadst small Latin and less Greek". 

Petter Myhr Ness wrote: Generally I don't understand why any serious scholar would claim he [Shakespeare] went to that grammar school when there are no records or evidence that he did so.

SB replied: John Shakespeare's life - his marriage above his class to Mary Arden, his repeated attempts to acquire a coat of arms - all suggest an ambitious man. Education then (and still now) was a great aid to social mobility, allowing bright children (well, sons, at that time) the opportunity to mix with their social betters and move up the social scale.

The school was roughly a quarter mile from Shakespeare's childhood home, and was free for all male children.

What's more likely - that John allowed Will to take advantage of such an opportunity, or that he didn't?

JB wrote: The problem arises from the Stratford camp elevating the school to an educational level greater than most of the universities of the time.

SB replied: But that's not what Stratfordians believe. While lauding his art, they recognise his educational shortcomings. Again, see Ben Jonson's own words above.


Edited by Steven Brake on 19 May 2025 at 3:53pm
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