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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134657
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| Posted: 13 June 2025 at 4:19pm | IP Logged | 1
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I feel having the general public—and, indeed, the fans—familiar with the accurate terminology is important. It’s like the balloons/bubbles argument. As Ive said, if I went to a football game and called the players headgear “caps” I would be dismissed as an idiot.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3838
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| Posted: 13 June 2025 at 9:20pm | IP Logged | 2
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Without a doubt.
I'm never sure where the line is. Being too insistent about something runs the risk of potentially alienating a new reader. And many young cartoonists couldn't care less about the history of the medium or any of the traditional approaches to production, in a willful kind of way (It's not dissimilar to the whole 'moldy figs' thing that popped up during the bebop era).
There's also the pressure of keeping the power fans wield when they (we?) know a thing that the straights don't. Being an expert in the esoterica of the thing we love is a major badge of pride for some. And all of that happens even before we get to the whole 'mainstream' vs. 'art' divide, which many people still use as a gauge by which the value of the work is decided.
It can be exhausting. But comics are one of America's true native art forms, so the fight is a necessary one.
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 8212
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| Posted: 14 June 2025 at 5:08am | IP Logged | 3
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I’m going to preface this question by saying that I too struggle with the term
graphic novel when it is applied to collections.
So here’s my question.
When novels were serialised before collection into their novel, is the
serialisation just that? A serialisation of a novel, as the story was always
intended to be released as a novel? Or is the novel a collection of a
serialised story? Is the original intent therefore important?
While people tend to ignore that comic issues were not written with the
intention of being released as a single unit? Most comic stories that lasted
more than an issue were done in two or so issues. And would contain
elements of stories that were not necessarily related to the collected story,
should they be collected.
I think I’ve just answered my own question there.
But then that rises more questions.
Take Watchmen.
Although released as single issues, it was a one and done story. So
technically it could be seen as a serialised novel. Similar thinking could
therefore be applied to most Maxi-series that were released.
I’ve only ever seen CAMELOT 3000 referred to as a maxi series, but that
was clearly a one and done story, of the same length as WATCHMEN. Was
the SQUADRON SUPREME maxi-series a serialised novel? Few would argue
it was I feel, despite it covering similar themes and, again, being of the
same length as WATCHMEN.
The term graphic novel existed before WATCHMEN came about (did it exist
before Marvel’s DEATH OF CAPTAIN MARVEL?) but was not applied when it
was released, nor when it was collected. I remember DC struggling to find a
term for what became prestige format, even at one point calling it the Dark
Knight format.
Collections were collections. Graphic novels were the Marvel line, which
seemed to start with stories written specifically for that format but
degenerated into becoming a place to get rid of inventory stories, along
with Marvel Fanfare.
For me, even after going through all the above, a collection is a trade
paperback. Even if the story was a serialised one and done. This goes for
things like V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, CAMELOT 3000 etc.
The one exception might be later CEREBUS stories, but that series did not
start out as being what it became post Dave Sim’s incident. I guess High
Society might be seen as the start of that moving from comic with collected
stories to a serialised novel. Others might have a different opinion.
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Richard Stevens
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1993
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| Posted: 14 June 2025 at 9:50am | IP Logged | 4
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That's a good point. There probably should be some distinction between collecting the 12 finite issues of Watchmen and a collection of 12 issues of The Amazing Spider-Man, out of nearly 1,000.
And if we could somehow make it that there were still only 12 finite issues of Watchmen, that would be great too.
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Scott Gray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 64
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| Posted: 14 June 2025 at 10:20am | IP Logged | 5
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It's absurd to claim comics like Watchmen and V for Vendetta aren't graphic novels simply because they were published in serialised editions first. They were conceived as complete stories with a beginning, middle and end.
Scores of classic novels were serialised in newspapers and magazines before being collected: Anna Karenina; The Three Musketeers; The Brothers Karamazov; David Copperfield; Uncle Tom's Cabin; The Woman in White. Who would claim they aren't novels?
Constructing artificial "rules" around a term only leads to pointless arguing.
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Scott Gray
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 August 2012
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 14 June 2025 at 10:23am | IP Logged | 6
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Richard Stevens wrote: And if we could somehow make it that there were still only 12 finite issues of Watchmen, that would be great too.
***************
Don't worry, Richard, there will only ever be those 12 issues. The rest is desperate fan-fic.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134657
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| Posted: 19 June 2025 at 4:17pm | IP Logged | 7
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It's absurd to claim comics like Watchmen and V for Vendetta aren't graphic novels simply because they were published in serialised editions first. They were conceived as complete stories with a beginning, middle and end.••• Once more, with feeling: “graphic novel” refers to format, not content. WATCHMEN was a collected edition.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
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| Posted: 19 June 2025 at 8:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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Getting back to the original question, in my opinion MAUS is about as good as it gets.
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Mike Benson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 January 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 843
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| Posted: 20 June 2025 at 2:15am | IP Logged | 9
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Marvel did some good stuff early on. I seem to remember that being my earliest exposure to the term. New Mutants intro was really compelling, the first X spin off after all. Too bad the tone and flavor from the graphic novel didn’t last long in the regular title. And Mr. Byrne’s She Hulk was so epic, like a special event. Great use of the format and almost certainly when I fell in love with the character.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
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Posts: 3838
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| Posted: 20 June 2025 at 2:30am | IP Logged | 10
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I did love that New Mutants graphic novel* - and indeed most of that series of 'graphic novels' from Marvel in the early 80's (Starslammers anyone?), but the fact that they called those 40 page, magazine-sized things 'graphic novels' so early into the life of the term confused the actual meaning of it before it had really had a chance to be a fixed definition.
*Weirdly, one of the things that sticks out in my memory is an editorial note that accidentally made its way into the final printing: "Color: please make a glow around Rahne"
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134657
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| Posted: 20 June 2025 at 8:58am | IP Logged | 11
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When it became obvious that “graphic novels” were selling, Marvel began repurposing anything they could in the format. Inventoried annuals, for instance. They did it often enough to severely tarnish the product. (I am not entirely blameless. The She-Hulk graphic novel was originally intended to be a miniseries.)
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20 June 2025 at 11:26am | IP Logged | 12
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One of the best they ever published.
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