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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134648
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 1:08pm | IP Logged | 1
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Seems like I’ve hit on this before. I found a thread elsewhere asking what is the GOAT of graphic novels. Didn’t even have to look to know the choice would be WATCHMEN. But WATCHMEN isn’t a graphic novel. Apologies to ennui-engorged fanboys, but WATCHMEN is a collection of issues originally published in monthly serial format. (Compounding the error is that “graphic novel” refers to format, not content.) No shame there. Graphic novels are, after all, just high end comic books. So you can love WATCHMEN. You can declare it to be the Greatest Thing Ever Written. But it’s not a graphic novel.
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Conrad Teves
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 2318
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 1:21pm | IP Logged | 2
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I forget the original presentation--does Mad Love count?
If so, that's mine.
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Dave Kopperman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 27 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3834
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 1:43pm | IP Logged | 3
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For a medium that used to call single-issue stories 'novel-length', nomenclature and obsession with the concept of length = depth, it can be difficult to figure out where to classify things in a traditional environment like a bookstore or library when comics start to live there. I do fall on the side of thinking of Watchmen as a novel - though certainly not the greatest in the medium. I'd think of it as a novel even if it had never been collected and sold as such.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 2:01pm | IP Logged | 4
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No problem with calling WATCHMEN a novel. Just about any continued story—whatever the length—can be considered such. But no matter how much we gussy up the ground beef, it’s still hamburger.
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Joe Smith
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 August 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6704
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 2:52pm | IP Logged | 5
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The Beatles made singles with no cohesive threads that were made into
Albums. How long until single issues disappear and all the kids know are
collected volumes, aka graphic novels?
ALPHA FLIGHT’s first 28 chapters would be a perfect graphic novel. I’d be
so happy if that were my first experience in the genre. BAM. 600 pages of
Canadian Super Life. I still think the Great Beasts were actual ancient lore.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134648
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 3:01pm | IP Logged | 6
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How long until single issues disappear and all the kids know arecollected volumes, aka graphic novels?••• The greatest fear of those elitist writers no longer able to hide their lazy habits behind “writing for the trade”.
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Dave Kopperman
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Joined: 27 December 2004
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 3:14pm | IP Logged | 7
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I think comics by nature are a short story medium. A lot of creators have tried their hands at longer pieces, but the commercial needs of mainstream comics (IP focused, open-ended, continuity heavy) and the lack of real money in art comics generally discourages real novelistic writing. Even the best graphic novels have more of a collected shorts interconnected vibe (I guess that's called a composite novel?), rather than a full novelistic one. I wonder if that's because revising in comics is a much heavier lift than in prose? It's pretty much first draft and you're done.
Edited by Dave Kopperman on 12 June 2025 at 3:14pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 5:57pm | IP Logged | 8
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When FEARBOOK was nominated for a Stoker Award for Best First Novel I wondered if it was really fair to be in that category, since I had been writing “novels” for years.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 6:00pm | IP Logged | 9
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…revising in comics is a much heavier lift than in prose? It's pretty much first draft and you're done.••• Depends on the writer. I say my plots/scripts go through around six drafts, three in my head before pencil touches paper.
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Dave Kopperman
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 6:31pm | IP Logged | 10
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Right - writing is much easier to edit than drawing. And starting a new draft implies having completed a full draft. I mean the whole ball of wax, assuming a full-length (300+pp) novel. Redrawing dozens of pages after the full thing has been completed isn't really a time-efficient or cost-efficient process - or a fun one. I have a friend who's been drawing and redrawing (but never completing) the same 40-page story since we graduated college over THIRTY YEARS ago. It's agonizing to see it.
Maybe the curse and maybe the boon of the medium is the once and done aspect of the drawing stage? Particularly if there's a deadline or even a monthly page count. Send it out and on to the next one. In mainstream work the bullpen may come in and redraw or re-letter some odd panel here or there - no doubt an easier task in the digital age than in the era of rubber cement and photostats.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 6:52pm | IP Logged | 11
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Some day I’ll show you all the unused pages from ELSEWHEN. A district down side of the making-it-up-as-I-go approach was that plotlines often took on a life of their own and had to be forced back on track.
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Jason K Fulton
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Joined: 23 September 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 776
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| Posted: 12 June 2025 at 7:10pm | IP Logged | 12
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Still have fond memories of the ELSEWHEN pages you posted in the "Methadone" thread - that Fantastic Four / Spider-Man / Skrull storyline!
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