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Topic: Tracing photos and comic books - 2nd NEAL response Locked Post Reply | Post New Topic
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Richard Siegel
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Joined: 04 January 2005
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Posted: 26 August 2005 at 8:31pm | IP Logged | 1  

There was an arguement?
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John Byrne

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Joined: 11 May 2005
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Posted: 26 August 2005 at 9:30pm | IP Logged | 2  

I told you once....
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Richard Siegel
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Posted: 26 August 2005 at 10:54pm | IP Logged | 3  

Why you... I oughta...

Nah - thats Magic Man and Nemesis.

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Paul Go
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Posted: 26 August 2005 at 10:58pm | IP Logged | 4  

I'm sorry, this is abuse.
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David Schimmel
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Posted: 26 August 2005 at 11:33pm | IP Logged | 5  

Well, as promised, I wrote Neal back to ask the question in a more direct manner, and I just got a reply.....interesting to say the least!

Here was my question, and I quoted EVS in it:

Neal,

Quick follow up, if you would reply.

The follow up question from many, is as follows:

Neal, were you saying that an artist should trace people and put costumes on them for their professional work, or are you saying that artists should trace as a way to learn how to draw, but not do so as a way to complete a project? 

Ethan Van Sciver, a current pro for DC, asked me to pose the question this way:  "The question is, should we all start tracing photographs that we didn't take ourselves, you know, out of magazines for example, lightbox them, alter them slightly and call it a comic book?"

I probably did not ask the question the correct way the first time and I hope it's OK to bother you again.

Thank you so much!

David

 And here is the response:

 

Ethan Van Sciver colors his question with the derogatory phraseology “call it a comic book,” which in the end is neither here nor there, except that it shows an investment in emotion in the subject, good or bad.

The first thing I am saying is do not do as I say. No matter how good my point may be. I am not to be trusted.

Nothing said by anyone is good advice to you, as an individual striving to excel, unless (in my opinion, again) it makes sense to you. Opinions and facts are like different books in a library. Only when you absorb these facts and opinions and integrate or not integrate them into your thinking that you decide what is valuable to you alone. YOU ALONE.

Even less valuable than my thinking is opinions and prejudices from other people which limit your potential to do great work. And opinion that limits you is negative. Any opinion that sets you free to try, to learn, to experiment without fear of prejudicial criticism, is positive and will likely help you learn. A person is not born, nor does he live in a vacuum. He lives in the world. This is what he draws when he tries to become an artist.

If he “draws” his information from life, the world around him, he has the greatest potential. If he draws by imitating another artist, his limitations are doubled. First, his own limitations, piled on top of the other artist’s limitations.

“Why do you draw a phone like that? Or a hand like that?”
“Because so-and-so does.”
“So you do not have a phone near you or a hand at the end of your arm or a mirror on which to see that hand?”

Sound stupid? I’ve had this conversation happen a hundred times.

Here is a story. Norman Rockwell, perhaps the greatest American illustrator of the twentieth century, began his career drawing from models. He could take a couple of weeks on one illustration. And so he worked from drawing models.

Then he discovered that his work was very limited because his models could only stay in position for a limited time so he could purposely did ideas or compositions that did not require extreme or difficult positions. Without realizing it he had limited his ideas to those where the pose could be held for a long time.

Then he began to take pictures. What a revelation. He need only get the right pose for a few seconds and he had what he needed. He could, in fact, take several shots and pick and chose. His whole way of thinking changed. He was set free.

Now he drew from the photos… still, it was tedious.

It was hard to do it over, if he changed his mind. He would invest so much time in the drawing and its detail that if he didn’t like it…well, doing it over was truly painful.

He gridded the work so it was meticulously perfect. A lot of work.

Why not project the photos and trace them and then, as he always did, he modified them to suit his sensibilities. It cut his work in half. He could work twice as fast without hurting the quality.

 

Secondly… if I draw a tree, I will draw a type of tree. Many comic book artists draw one kind of tree. One kind of rock, one kind of hero, one kind of woman.

When you trace rocks or trees you quickly learn there are many kinds of each. Just as there are many kinds of heroes, people, women, old people, kids, babies and ah babies. How many comic book artists can draw babies… really? A handful (and maybe less). Why?

Don’t trace photos. Don’t carry a sketchbook. Don’t do life drawing.

Free yourself to learn, then do work! Most young comic book artists and artists in general are afraid of work. They draw what they LIKE TO DRAW but when it might take a little actual WORK TO LEARN something they flee in terror. They cherry pick habits that suit their lazy attitude, and reject learning.

And in the end,  artists that are willing to make learning part of their process become better than the limited, un free, refusing-to-learn artist… and this advance in quality of the wise openminded artist can never be overcome. The openminded free from prejudice, hardworking hard-learning and yes, tracing artists will be the one who “duels with titans” in a manner of speaking. The self-limiting, available to prejudice, undisciplined, blinded by the opinions of others will be left in the dust and not to put too fine an edge on it, that’s just too damn bad. They chose to crumble to prejudice and it can’t really be pinned on anyone else. No. don’t follow my advice. Use your own brain to think, not someone else’s prejudices to terrify yourself away from a fruitful path… or not. Only a few can be the best… and they really did it on their own. YOU are your own best friend.

 

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Eric Lund
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 12:55am | IP Logged | 6  

AWESOME response by Neal! Dead on the money....At Joe Kubert I met and was taught by two very successful artists who trace photographs... Boris Vallejo and Rowena Morril....Rowena advocated the practice and Boris made great use of it...

For myself I do not trace photos but use photo reference or artistice reference when needed.... All the great masters learned by copying others that came before them..... Even the master Frazetta used photos to work from in his work. You can find example after example of this and his female face is his wife Ellie and his herioc face is himself.....

The trick is to make it your own...and create something that no one has seen before...Art is taking what you see and interperating it and abstracting upon it....Learning to SEE is what makes an artist....

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Ethan Van Sciver
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Joined: 22 February 2005
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 12:56am | IP Logged | 7  

That was absolutely beautifully said.  I wish I hadn't been 'snarky' in my question.  But I do actually have an opinion on this, whether it's colored by emotion or something else.

Norman Rockwell, if he had traced the photographs he took as reference, couldn't have possibly have acchieved the life and character that was uniquely his, that he breathed into his paintings.  Aside from his portrait work, (Which, I don't know if he should have traced or not...That's a different question) his covers for the Saturday Evening Post were helped by reality, but not restricted by it.  If he had simply traced whatever photo reference he'd had for that one painting of the little boy with the napsack who's run away from home, sitting on a stool in a soda shot next to a fat policeman, it wouldn't have been as funny, sweet, endearing...It would have been a photograph.  There's so much interpretation that goes on, so much opinion, so much humor, so much character that could only come from someone with a soul, not a camera and a lightbox.

Neal Adams is right when he says that no advice can truly be helpful from one artist to another, in making someone their own voice.  And I'm interested in that, a voice.  Use photos for help, because sometimes, look, it's just doesn't exist in your brain.  You need something to help you stir your visualization process.  But at the end of it all, the idea is to have an interpretation of things that is uniquely yours.  That's what make a special comic book artist, in my opinion.

Anyhow, thanks, David.  That was really good of you.

-EVS

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Ian Evans
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Joined: 12 September 2004
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 1:53am | IP Logged | 8  

From a very much lesser ability here, I have a little question....every time I ever copied  photograph, it was - even when dead on accurate - much less 'alive' than something taken from life...things drawn from life somehow had a quality that things taken from a photograph flat out lacked, no matter what I tried to do to alter the line to darken it or whatever...is this true for real artists or a problem specific to me?

Edit: umb ypo



Edited by Ian Evans on 27 August 2005 at 1:55am
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Glenn Brown
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Joined: 16 April 2004
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 4:24am | IP Logged | 9  

No, it's not necessarily you Ian.  In my experience, photographs work best as a compositional tool to get your image down on the paper...but once it's there, in rough form, you have to pull it off of the lightbox and then flesh it out, tighten it up and embellish it as you would any "regular" illustration.

The flatness, stiffness and lifelessness occurs when guys skip that step, and just trace what's in the photograph without any embellishment at all.  That is one of the liabilities of relying too heavily upon reference of any kind IMO. 

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Didier Yvon Paul Fayolle
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 4:55am | IP Logged | 10  

My 2 cents are, I know a lot of comics book artists who do some kind of reference folders, classing everything, from a posture to a landing airplane. And it is all classed neatly, picking up photos mainly from the TV magazines we have in France, ( I don't know if your TV Guide can do ). They don't try to reproduce exactly the photo, but just take the part they need.

But everybody has a different way of doing it.

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Darragh Greene
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Joined: 16 March 2005
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 5:01am | IP Logged | 11  

Neal Adams would make a good guru; but that's not necessarily a good thing.
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Darragh Greene
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Posted: 27 August 2005 at 5:03am | IP Logged | 12  

Ian, try turning those photos upside-down, and then copy them. You'll find you'll use artistic right-brain processes instead of the usual intellectual left-brain ones, and a whole new world of creativity will slowly open up to you. Try it, draw what your imagination prompts you to, and you'll produce something uniquely yours despite the secondhand reference.
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