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Vladimir Fiks
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1138
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 5:02am | IP Logged | 1
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Here is kind of odd suggestion, a little experiment if you will. I think it
would be interesting if the people who strongly object to this technique,
but don't do this for a living, actually tried it. Take the SI cover, trace it,
and using it a starting point create a finished illustration.
I'm not trying to change anyone's particular point, not really interested in
doing so, and I doubt that it's really possible in a debate. However, I do
believe that this experiment might provide an interesting additional
insight. It would also be interesting the different results that would come
out.
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Michael Norton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 302
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 7:15am | IP Logged | 2
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Glenn Brown:
"For those whose opinion of a work is diminished by the knowledge it
was traced, consider this before condemning the practice outright. If
tracing an image displays a lack of creativity and skill, give a
photograph to a non-artist to trace and render as an illustration...and
then compare it to the artist's version.
I would be willing to bet that the non-artist's version would not
look the same as the photograph itself, or the artist's version.
I'm not advocating the practice, merely trying to illustrate a
point. It's not necessarily as easy as it may look, and an artist does
have to bring something to the table re skills in order to successfully
pull it off."
Glenn, does that logic really work? Isn't it a no-brainer that the
non artist will not be able to produce an illustration on the same
level as an artist when they are both tracing? I'll try to illustrate
my point like this, the original Van Halen was often criticized for
doing so many cover songs and not creating their own material. They
took songs like "Pretty Woman" or "Girl, you really got me", used their
own style and made the songs their own. But if the response to the band
not doing much in the way of song writing in their early days was "But
can the critics play the guitar on those cover tunes like Eddie Van
Halen?", would that be a valid response? For the record, I loved me
some Van Halen and don't mind if artists use all the tools available to
them as long as they are ethical about it.
Edited for clarity.
Edited by Michael Norton on 28 August 2005 at 7:17am
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6076
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 3
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"However, I do believe that this experiment might provide an interesting additional
insight. It would also be interesting the different results that would come
out. "-Vlad
Och, I wouldn't want to show Greg up;-)
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John Mietus
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 9695
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 8:15am | IP Logged | 4
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Good one, Darren.
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Glenn Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3094
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 5
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Michael, I don't believe it is necessarily a no-brainer. And believe me, I didn't suggest it with any smart-ass intent...i.e., "If you think it's so easy, then you try it!!! Nyah, nyahhh!!!" Rather, I thought it would be interesting (and possibly fun) for the non-artists to try it, just to see how easy or difficult tracing something is, relative to your expectations.
Issues of ethics only come into play when one tries to pass off a swipe or re-creation as original, personal work. When practicing or experimenting, there's absolutely nothing wrong with copying something. In music schools, how else do students learn but from studying and performing pieces by other composers? To limit yourself in such a way only chokes off your development unnecessarily.
edited for clarity/spelling
Edited by Glenn Brown on 28 August 2005 at 4:55pm
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Charles Jensen
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 1127
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 2:35pm | IP Logged | 6
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In music schools, how else do students learn but from learning and performing pieces by other composers? To limit yourself in such a way only chokes off your development unnecessarily.
I have to agree with this. I definitely think I stunted my own growth as an artist in my teens with a macho attitude that copying people like Byrne or other professional artists was wrong.
I actually learned that here on this forum when I discovered that the best artists did in fact copy others styles before they branched out on their own.
The truly ironic part is that I didn't need to trace things. Even in my early teens I was very good at reproducing things from the eye and ectremely photorealistic My problem was that I was never able to easily translate that into comic book art. So out of frustration I just quit drawing regularly.
Edited by Charles Jensen on 28 August 2005 at 4:06pm
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Todd Hembrough
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 4171
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:32pm | IP Logged | 7
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It is my contention that tracing, itself is not a problem. I
believe this especially when the subjects being traced are generated by
the artist him/herself. It is obvious that a non-artist could not
accomplish what Greg Land did with that cover.
My concern, is that it is copyright infringement to copy someone elses
work without attribution, and in some cases making payment.
To me it is clear that the SI tracing is exactly that. To me there is
no gray area. I can agree that it is art, and there is nothing
wrong with tracing in the abstract.
Brian made point up thread that Rap and Hip-hop artists did this and
called it sampling. Then they were sued, and they got to share
ownership of their songs with the original, sampled, artists.
Taking someone elses copyrighted work is not kosher, and is wrong.
Tracing your own or generic photos, is exactly what JB attributed to
Wally Wood, the best, easiest way to accomplish your job.
Todd
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Michael Norton
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 29 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 302
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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Glenn, it seems like we are in complete agreement then. I hope you didn't think I was being antogonistic.
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Glenn Brown
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 3094
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 4:53pm | IP Logged | 9
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"Glenn, it seems like we are in complete agreement then. I hope you didn't think I was being antogonistic."
No, not at all!
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Mike Tishman
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 25 July 2005
Posts: 229
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| Posted: 28 August 2005 at 7:00pm | IP Logged | 10
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Todd Hembrough wrote:
Brian made point up thread that Rap and Hip-
hop artists did this and called it sampling. Then they were sued, and they
got to share ownership of their songs with the original, sampled, artists. |
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A move which a lot of people still take issue with, on creative, legal, or
ethical grounds, and which has arguably
retarded development in a promising area of artistic expression.
In general, right now, copyright law is heavy-handed, and that heavy-
handedness is strangling legitimate expression and even technological
development.
Edited by Mike Tishman on 28 August 2005 at 7:01pm
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 32043
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| Posted: 29 August 2005 at 8:39am | IP Logged | 11
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In general, right now, copyright law is heavy-handed, and that heavy-
handedness is strangling legitimate expression and even technological
development.
****************
But how legitimate can their expression be if their whole foundation of a piece of art is using someone else's art? How artistic are you, really, when all you do is trace over a picture of a hot chick from the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue and put a Supergirl costume on her? And with Photoshop, you don't even have to trace!
I agree that tracing can be used as a basis and tool for learning. I can even see where tracing or photocopying something like backgrounds may come into play in producing a comic page. What I don't get is someone taking the latest SI Swimsuit Issue cover and tracing clothes on it and people calling that original or creative. There doesn't seem to be a lot of creative energy going into that, to me.
But, that's just my 2 cents.
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Guest79877180
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 April 2005
Location: United States
Posts: 2386
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| Posted: 29 August 2005 at 9:05am | IP Logged | 12
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My concern, is that it is copyright infringement to copy someone elses
work without attribution, and in some cases making payment.
To me it is clear that the SI tracing is exactly that.
~~~~~
My point as well. That's what bothers me the most in this.
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