Jason Carpenter wrote: Yeah but HOW is "swiping" any different from referencing a photograph for a pose?

Because, other than composition, a photograph is a representation of real life (obviously we are not discussing manipulated photographs, here). Artists have to know what something looks like in order to draw it, and if the artist can't see what s/he needs to draw in person, s/he must rely on photo reference. An artist then translates that reality into his or her own vision. When one artist swipes from another artist, the swiper isn't putting forth his or her vision, but stealing another artist's vision of reality.

That's the difference: Using photos is basing your art on reality, or a reasonable copy of reality. Swiping from another artist is taking that artist's interpretation of reality and passing it off as the swiper's own vision.

Hmm, the only artists that fit that bill would be Graham Nolan of Judge Parker, June Brigman of Brenda Starr, Larry Lieber of Spider-Man and Paul Ryan of The Phantom. And I don't think any of those four were swipers.

"Well, according to me, lightboxing photographs out of magazines is simply unethical, and according to Glenn Brown, those who do so produce work that features "...stiff figures, unimaginative layouts, unnecessarily over-rendered figures to mask weaknesses in proportion and anatomy" although he also says it's necessary and perhaps idiotic not to trace photographs of Cindy Crawford out of VOGUE and sell them to a comic book publisher."

Glenn reacts to my spin by saying: "Hey, Ethan!

Do me a favor...if you're going to attempt to comment on something I've posted, at least try to address what I've actually said without attributing some other bullshit to my name.  Thanks."

Hey Glenn!!

It wasn't what you'd intended to say (although I heard that loud and clear too.) but it IS what you said. 

Thanks,

Ethan

Matt: That's the difference: Using photos is basing your art on reality, or a reasonable copy of reality. Swiping from another artist is taking that artist's interpretation of reality and passing it off as the swiper's own vision.

I can see your point but I continue to disagree with you. If all you are doing is taking a pose, much like from a photograph, then how is it different. What if Neal Adams decided he wanted to use JB's pose of Superman from issue whatever, well, he knows how the human form looks so your own definition would not work. Mayhaps it is just as good a pose as any photograph. To take that a step further it isn't like there are exactly photos of people FLYING for that flying pose you need. Now I am just playing Devil's Advocate, I don't think a swiped pose should be used in a professional work and I am a Liefeld fan... which leads me to:

Chris Hutton: The asst. manager at my LCS cannot for the life of him figure out why Liefeld hasn't been blacklisted for his early tracing scandal.

Simple. Rich Buckler and Keith Giffen. Both men have a bad, bad history of "swiping" and not a pose here or there but sometimes whole comics. Buckler especially had developed a reputation as a swiper and according to interviews with his assistance he even kept comics as a swipe file. There are instances where Buckler literally traced Kirby issues of FF for his own FF run and passed it off as his own work. I am not talking a panel or two or a page here or there, but WHOLE issues. The thing is, Buckler is unapologetic and calls it politics and thinks there is nothing wrong with it and even after being busted on it in various publications continued to go about swiping unabashedly. The sad part is that Buckler could give JB a run for his money with his original artwork. He drew some issues of DC COmics Presents that were Superman/Captain Marvel crossovers that are just gorgeous and amazing to look at and read without the dialogue. Probably some of my favourite comics of all time here artwise. He even did a short series of How TO Draw comics that was just a great piece of work and showed a lot of wisdom about how to apporach comics and yet he is THE number one swiper in the industry. We don't want to even get started on the Ambush Bug controversy with Giffen.

I hate to even broach this topic but if you get The Jack Kirby Collector you will find a column in some issues called the Swipe File which details not when Jack was swiped, but when Jack SWIPED. In one issue they show how a single Starman story was swiped for an issue of Fighting American right down to the some of the story elements and almost completely the layouts with minor modifications. None of it looks traced as there are subtle but slight variances in poses etc. They go oveer a lot of Kirby's swipes.

Another things about Liefeld's "original" characters... not everyon can be 100% original or even 90% original. Its also not like ROb ever said "Glory is nothing like Wonder Woman" and then went on to do Wonder Woman like stories, no he saiod "Glory is my WOnder Woman and I am going to tell the types of stories I told would do if I did Wonder Woman with her" Etc. If we look back at the career of Jack Kirby he wasn't the most original creator outside of his time with STan and immediately following on New Gods and the Fourth World material. Jack had GREAT ideas and was an amazing and prolific creator but do you really think Captain America was original? Do you really think Sandman and Sandy the GOlden Boy were original? With the way people criticize Rob and characters like Badrock compared to the Thing, do you think Angel of the X-Men was original compared to Hawkman? I am not dissing Jack or trying to downplay his contributions to the industry, nor am I saying that Rob Liefeld is int eh same class as Jack (Rob can do great action sequences but unlike Jack, he can't make a talking head sequence to save his ass), I am trying to illustrate WHY Rob still gets work from the "swiping" to the unoriginal characters. Also, if you REALLY look at Rob's career, the swipes of Perez that are actual swipes, it was extremely early in his career. I don't consider the Ronin homage in NM 100 a swipe because the original artwork said AFTER FM but Harras removed it before publishing. Because he was such a spotlight creator at that time, and so early, his later career is filled with people trying to find swipes in all of his work and every little similarity is passed on as a swipe. My favourite is a shot of the Helicarrier that Rob supposedly swiped from a Jim Lee FF issue for Captain America except the Jim Lee FF issue came out only a scant few weeks before the Cap issue... so Jim HAD to have provided the artwork for Rob to use it and it was an obvious juxtaposing to a similar event in the FF so it made sense. If you look at Rob's "swipes" since the launch of Youngblood (to use as a benchmark) the characters and situations presented where the "swipe" occurs are in similar situations to what the swipe originally came from. Example SPICE in Fighting American compared to the Manga image he swiped. Both were of robotic girls brandishing large weapons while running away from the direction they are shooting. In the context it is obvious that Rob was trying to be A) Respectful and B) Pay Homag to the original artist. Another example, Steranko illustrated a scene of Cap fighting the forces of Hydra and Rob had a story where Cap was fightin AIM, he used a pose from Steranko's story in an obvious homage to that original story. The only difference between this scene and a page from JK4W that JB homaged a Kirby page from the original New Gods is JB signed after JK on the pages and JB is a superior artist but taking the context of these later "swipes" etc. it is obvious, when compared to JB's homages or even Neal's etc. that they aren't "swipes" in the sense that many people are wanting to portray them.

Jason