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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 1
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Guilty of feeling a disconnect when it was revealed that Phoenix was a copy of Jean -- I needed to hear JB point out how the copy of Jean being so GOOD was a way of enhancing Jean's goodness.
My first feeling was that X-Factor kind of made the entire Phoenix story feel like it didn't really happen. And I wanted it to happen, so I had a hard time sorting that out.
But seeing this -- seeing the copy of Jean being recognized as such somehow puts all the emotional pieces in place. Now I can see it all-- and the feelz!!
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Robert Painter
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Joined: 01 January 2020
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 3:15pm | IP Logged | 2
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Wow... again! Hell of a Friday cliffhanger!
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Dave Phelps
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 3:23pm | IP Logged | 3
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John Byrne wrote:
| But, I’d say, if the human spirit is so strong even a COPY will make the “ultimate sacrifice” isn’t that a BETTER story? |
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More optimistic world view, certainly, but I can't agree it made for a better story. A lot of the emotions, tragedy and impact of the Dark Phoenix Saga came from the fact (at the time) that this was Jean they were fighting against and/or for. Going through all that for a copy just isn't the same.
If the reveal had occurred during the story (Lilandra reveals the cocoon and/or Jean herself in 137; 137 ending with a shot of her in the cocoon at the bottom of the bay with a caption like, "But know this, Recorder: While the Phoenix is no more, JEAN GREY's story is FAR from over."; whatever), I don't think #137 would've had the impact it had.
Some would say that's a good thing, admittedly.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 3:26pm | IP Logged | 4
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Guilty of feeling a disconnect when it was revealed that Phoenix was a copy of Jean -- I needed to hear JB point out how the copy of Jean being so GOOD was a way of enhancing Jean's goodness. ••• Not what I said.
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Michael Genitempo
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 3:55pm | IP Logged | 5
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For me, part of the tragedy was that Jean felt she wasn’t strong enough to hold back her dark side (what was at first a dark personality for us readers then, only later revealed to be a definite separate entity though looking back now there are clues right from X-men 101) indefinitely and thus had to kill herself. That was amazingly tragic, and you just felt for her being in that impossible situation.
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Michael Genitempo
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 3:59pm | IP Logged | 6
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I also liked the notion that perhaps Jean was somehow still linked in to the copy living the experiences alongside the Phoenix somehow while still in the cocoon. “Saved the universe by remote control” was I believe how it was phrased in FF 286? Or maybe I’m remembering it wrong...
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 4:46pm | IP Logged | 7
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I needed to hear JB point out how the copy of Jean being so GOOD was a way of enhancing Jean's goodness.
•••
Not what I said.
***
You must be right. I don't recall exactly what you said, but it made me understand that the "X-Factor" story established Jean as so good that even a copy of her was able to sacrifice itself to stop the Phoenix. And this understanding enhanced Jean's goodness in my eyes.
Edited by Mark Haslett on 21 August 2020 at 5:01pm
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Nathan Greno
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Joined: 20 April 2006
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 6:59pm | IP Logged | 8
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John Byrne wrote:
| But, I’d say, if the human spirit is so strong even a COPY will make the “ultimate sacrifice” isn’t that a BETTER story? |
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Dave: More optimistic world view, certainly, but I can't agree it made for a better story. A lot of the emotions, tragedy and impact of the Dark Phoenix Saga came from the fact (at the time) that this was Jean they were fighting against and/or for. Going through all that for a copy just isn't the same.
***
I agree with you, Dave.
It’s possible to give just about ANYTHING an emotional story (Wilson, the inanimate volleyball, is a great example of this). Creating a tale that asks the question, “Would a copy of the human spirit sacrifice itself to save the world?” could be compelling and emotional — but as it stands, X-Men #137 wasn’t created to be that tale... and it ISN’T that tale. It’s one story retrofitted to be another. Because of that, I wasn’t a fan of Jean’s return (in the 80’s), because it took an existing emotional story (#137) and turned it into an intellectual idea.
If Jean has to be “resurrected”, I MUCH prefer Elsewhen’s “erase the death” approach. I feel it’s a chance to ACTUALLY tell a (real) “human spirit copy/sacrifice story”.
That’s my opinion!
PS. There’s been some awesome drawing throughout this issue. These pencils keep getting stronger and stronger.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 7:14pm | IP Logged | 9
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I have come to prefer ELSEWHEN to what was actually published in every way.
I only wish there was a way to circle through DAYS OF FUTURE PAST somehow.
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John Northey
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Joined: 09 June 2020
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 7:20pm | IP Logged | 10
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::I only wish there was a way to circle through DAYS OF FUTURE PAST somehow.
Hey, who knows? Maybe Mr. Byrne has a story there that is stuck in his mind that he feels a need to do? We can dream. Given how good this has been I'll be very sad when it all ends and JB goes back to paid work. Ah well, no matter what this has been a fun ride. I'm really curious where he goes now. Prof X learning that wasn't really Jean was inevitable but how everyone reacts if/when he passes that along should be interesting. IIRC this is supposed to be the end of the Phoenix saga when this "issue" is done so at least we don't have long to learn.
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Michael Genitempo
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| Posted: 21 August 2020 at 7:26pm | IP Logged | 11
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Ok I went back and reread the FF286 issue - while the quote is quite close, it is corrected by Reed to be “more like post hypnotic suggestion” so sorry about that - it’s quite a while since I read that issue ( although I still do like the notion I alluded to despite it not being what happened really) -embarrassed Mike
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
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| Posted: 22 August 2020 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 12
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::I only wish there was a way to circle through DAYS OF FUTURE PAST somehow.Hey, who knows? Maybe Mr. Byrne has a story there that is stuck in his mind that he feels a need to do? •• Part of the point of this exercise was to erase DAYS OF FUTURE PAST.* This is a JB Happy Ending, not a CC "We Always Fail." -------- * Which was, of course, my intent for DoFP itself!!
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