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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6772
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 11:11am | IP Logged | 1
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James: Remember that puff piece by the former Fox presenter where he
was
amazed that in Russia you have to use a token to use a shopping trolley?
**
Same guy who gave speeches in support of Orban in Hungary and
promotes Orban in the U.S. as an example of a great leader.
The gaslighting about this is almost contemptuously thin.
And now (in)Justice Roberts has rubber stamped the government claim that
it has no obligation to bring people back who are “mistakenly” sent to
torture prison in El Salvador. We can steal Greenland and invade Panama,
but if we have to un-do a White House kidnapping, our hands are tied.
A great republic while we could keep it.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 12:08pm | IP Logged | 2
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As for "honesty in history," do you agree that Hamilton's tariffs were a tax on Americans? That he found the money for the war by taxing Americans? Of course, they had to pay for it somehow, and the tools at their discretion were limited, but still a tax on Americans.
You understand that Trump thinks tariffs are paid by the exporting country, right? Counselor to the President Peter Navarro was just on TV the other day saying tariffs were a tax *cut*, and was still pushing the "foreigners" pay nonsense. This is the heart of all the obvious and inevitable opposition. Their position (and actions) are founded on a clear falsehood.
=================
Conrad there is no "debate" re: Hamilton's successful policies. His tariff practices, as were Lincoln's, were a success.
Also, once again you're trying to paint me into a corner as a supporter of Trump's tariff policies. I am not.
Edited by Brennan Voboril on 09 April 2025 at 12:10pm
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 12:16pm | IP Logged | 3
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Trump may or may not be a Russian asset, but the fact is the Russians are sitting back enjoying what is going on.
====================
The US has something like 24,000+ sanctions on Russia. You're telling me - with a straight face - that Russia is enjoying that?
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Matt Reed
Byrne Robotics Security
Robotmod
Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 36272
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:09pm | IP Logged | 4
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Brennan Voboril wrote:
| there is no "debate" re: Hamilton's successful policies. His tariff practices, as were Lincoln's, were a success. |
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You keep bringing this up. The fact that tariffs were successful (Lincoln’s were 151 years ago) as if that blanket statement applies unilaterally to today is, I’m sorry, ludicrous. It doesn’t at all factor into how they are being applied today. It doesn’t at all take into account the international economy that was nascent at best during the Civil War era. It totally ignores the very real fact that tariffs were, in part, a reason for the Guilded Age where a majority of money was held in the hands of a very few incredibly rich people (often called robber barons) and were a large reason for keeping wages low, sweat houses, and substandard lives for all but the exceedingly rich.
Did the tariffs of 150-200 years ago work? Yes, applied carefully during a time of great need, they raised money in times of war or economic downturn. They do not work when liberally applied, slapdash and with no thought to their calculation. They were also a key component to keep money in the hands of those who already had it during a time when much of the manufacturing of products consumed in the United States were created here and not abroad. That is decidedly not the case today. It’s a genie that can not be put back into the bottle no matter how much some (many) wish it to be so.
I’m a history buff, though far from an expert. I, too, want to honestly discuss history. That is decidedly not what you are doing when you use blanket statements like tariffs are successful in order to shut down discussion. “Oh, Lincoln used them? Hamilton too? Guess I was wrong!” Tariffs are a tax and are largely paid for by working class people, those least able to afford it. That’s why we moved (were forced) into a national income tax. It’s taxes all based on every person’s income, assets and investments that, in theory, is paid according to a person’s ability to afford them. The more you make, the more you owe. And everyone, including businesses, pay. That’s obviously simplistic and doesn’t mean it’s perfect, but it’s what we have. Tariffs are, in the world of today, the total opposite of that.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 134144
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:13pm | IP Logged | 5
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Lincoln also suspended habeus corpus.Don’t tell Trumf about that!
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:15pm | IP Logged | 6
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The US has something like 24,000+ sanctions on Russia. You're telling me - with a straight face - that Russia is enjoying that? ............................... How many of those were put in place by the current administration?
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:46pm | IP Logged | 7
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How many were removed? That's the question.
Russian Secret Agent Krasnov has left them in place.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:49pm | IP Logged | 8
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Matt I never said that because tariffs were successful in the past that they will be successful today. You're putting words in my mouth.
Let me be crystal clear: the Trump tariffs will not bring back manufacturing to the USA, they will backfire, and cause harm to the US and world economy.
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ron bailey
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 October 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 1201
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:52pm | IP Logged | 9
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Russian Secret Agent Krasnov has left them in place. .................................... For now. Matter of time.
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:53pm | IP Logged | 10
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I've never believed official US inflation numbers. I think anyone who buys groceries, rents an apartment, buys a house, medical care, etc. knows how high inflation is - but let me tell you "you ain't seen nothing yet!" When the effect of these addle-brained tariffs hit -> watch out below!
Something that amuses me to no end is the idea the US could build iPhones in the States. One of Trump's mouthpieces said that the other day. I think Trump even said Tim Cook is bringing Apple manufacturing to the US. He isn't. He can't
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Brennan Voboril
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 15 January 2011
Posts: 1810
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 1:58pm | IP Logged | 11
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Ron if Krasnov was really Boris Badenov he would have ended all aid to Ukraine, Starlink would have been turned off, and US munitions would be sent to Vladdy Daddy. Putler and Donald would be cracking champagne bottles in Moscow.
If Trump was really this Russian agent he'd have fired every neocon in his admin - like Kellogg, Waltz, Rubio, etc.
What does Trump have to lose?
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Mark Haslett
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 19 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 6772
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| Posted: 09 April 2025 at 2:10pm | IP Logged | 12
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The US has something like 24,000+ sanctions on Russia. You're telling me
- with a straight face - that Russia is enjoying that?
...............................
How many of those were put in place by the current administration?
**
None. Trump’s already taken actions being taken to lift all sanctions and
restore Russia to G8. He has prioritized “trade negotiations” with Russia
that he promises will be “great for both sides”— first step being the end of
support for Ukraine — a massive concession to Russia for which we
received… nothing. Except Trump gets humiliated and forced to wait on the
phone while Putin publicly leaves Trump on hold. Russia, as a trade partner,
has NOTHING to offer the U.S.
But Trump’s eagerness to do this is just a weird quirk of his dumb brain—
nothing going on that involves Trump being rewarded by Russia for working
in their interest against the U.S. - the fact that this is exactly what Russia
would want and that Trump has been beholden to Russia for 30 years is just
unrelated trivia.
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