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Chuck Gower
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 6:15am | IP Logged | 1
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Hi JB, I did a pretty thorough search and couldn't find the answer, so I really hope I'm not repeating something. I found your reasons on why you originally left your short initial stint on the Incredible Hulk, but apparently, Jim Shooter gave a response on his blog that points the finger away from himself. I'd never seen you address this and was wondering if you had a response.
Here's what he wrote:
I was frequently out of the office in those days, traveling on business, in which case DeFalco or Gruenwald signed off on the books. What they were thinking sometimes, I cannot fathom, but a number of issues from Denny's office made it into print that had serious flaws or things that were unacceptable -- including several by John Byrne.
After one particularly bad incident, I finally confronted Denny and told him he'd better start doing his job. That very day, I think, a John Byrne Hulk job came in, finished, lettered and inked, that was all splash pages. Denny thought I'd go ballistic when I saw it, so he rejected it! And he told John it was because I, Jim Shooter, didn't approve.
John was the one who went ballistic. He quit, contacted the President of Marvel and demanded I be fired. The President called me and asked who the hell John Byrne was, and to please keep these people from bothering him.
It certainly seems strange to think, you'd just quit a book over one issue, without having any direct contact with the EiC.... but of course that's why I'm asking you directly to respond....
Thanks!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133544
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 6:52am | IP Logged | 2
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Jim Shooter gave a response on his blog that points the finger away from himself.•• Shooter is always the hero in his own life. My shifting from Alpha Flight to the Hulk had its beginnings in a taxi ride I shared with Shooter, months earlier. We were talking about what needed "fixing" at Marvel, and I mentioned a longtime fondness for the Hulk. "What would you do with the Hulk?" he asked. I told him. "That's GREAT!" he said. "Do it!" So I mulled and mused for a while, and then called Bill Mantlo and asked if he wanted to swap books. Bill did his own mulling and musing, and said yes. Then I asked Denny O'Neil, my AF editor, if he'd be up for the swap. He was. Then I proceeded to do exactly what I'd told Shooter I would do. And his response was "You can't do this!!!" Same thing that had happened with Phoenix. Same thing that was happening more and more on FF. Business as usual at Marvel in those days.
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Chuck Gower
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 12 February 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 6:57am | IP Logged | 3
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Thanks JB, I appreciate the quick reply.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 7:18am | IP Logged | 4
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By the way, Denny did not tell me he couldn't use the all-splash issue because Shooter had rejected it. Denny didn't even show it to Shooter. Everyone at the office was by then so gun shy they were afraid to let Shooter even SEE something that might "upset" him. And THAT was why I quit HULK, and why I eventually quit FF. Impossible to work in that environment, where something could be approved in full on Friday, and utterly rejected on Monday.And -- the all-splash story was later used by Al Milgrom as an issue of MARVEL FANFARE, the "prestige" book. So perhaps it was not so bad after all?
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Marc Cheek
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 18 June 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 1785
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 7:26am | IP Logged | 5
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I was just reading about that issue of The Hulk last night as I was flipping through the 1980s edition of The American Comic Book Chronicles. It was mentioned that O'Neil never showed the issue to Shooter. I would have to go back and see what the author's source was for the incident.
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Greg Woronchak
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 1631
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 7:44am | IP Logged | 6
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where something could be approved in full on Friday, and utterly rejected on Monday.
Sounds a bit bi-polar lol. Too bad for that situation, your Hulk run was shaping up to be a classic!
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Darren Taylor
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 6025
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 7:54am | IP Logged | 7
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The Creative 'Sign-Off' process can be very ethereal to non 'creative' types. My Family/Friends can't believe that such a seemingly small point of process can make such a huge difference.
I worked on a Production with a company who's practice it was to retain the right to send the artwork back -once- for corrections or alterations. The line in the sand that this establishes allows the artist to know -exactly- where they stand. It was a joy to work for this company.
Another Company's practice was to allow for two revision's and the right to ask the artist for 'alterations' at animatic, there appears to be as many interpretations of this clause as their are Companies.
In entering the profession, a lot of artists/creatives can fall foul of this and find themselves on an Escher-esque never ending course of corrections. Sometimes, these situation appear from nowhere. You might look to provide an additional bit of work for an Editor or AD you have worked with before because it'd be helpful to them and open yourself to expectation. Choose to point at your contract after that and be forever branded!
If there is one cog in the process that agitates, sooner or later it will break the process.
I put up with a very poor sign-off process, that suffered from 'too many cooks-syndrome' for 6 months (in order to see the Production through to the end.) the experience has forced me to -refuse- work from that company ever again. I just couldn't go through that again.
So I can only imagine the effort taken for you John to go through similar for so long and particularly as it always struck me how much you cared for Marvel's history and it's characters.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 133544
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 9:58am | IP Logged | 8
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I would have welcomed "too many cooks!" Unfortunately, we had one all-powerful* cook who kept changing the recipes!––––––––– * Mike Hobson had other ideas.
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Stephen Robinson
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5835
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 10:10am | IP Logged | 9
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The popular writer/artist on FANTASTIC FOUR and HULK was
also revamping SUPERMAN (with all the associated media
attention). Shooter somehow lost that writer/artist
through a series of passive-aggressive, boneheaded moves.
In any industry, this is how you lose your job.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 10:37am | IP Logged | 10
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The popular writer/artist on FANTASTIC FOUR and HULK was also revamping SUPERMAN (with all the associated media attention). Shooter somehow lost that writer/artist through a series of passive-aggressive, boneheaded moves.In any industry, this is how you lose your job. ••• Much as my ego would like that to be the case, the circumstances of Shooter's ejection had little to do with me!
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Charles Valderrama
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4859
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 1:51pm | IP Logged | 11
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To think, what Shooter did in those days pale in comparison to what goes on at Marvel these days!! I almost wish he'd come back as EiC. 'Course I know that the structure at Marvel is way different than it was back when
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
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| Posted: 07 January 2015 at 2:06pm | IP Logged | 12
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Shooter was in charge.•• And let us not forget, there was a time when he was a force for good. When Shooter came to Marvel, the company was a stumbling giant, unfocused, undirected, basically a mess. It was the time of writer/editors and fad chasing. Shooter steered the boat back on course, and that was a good thing. Unfortunately, having fixed the problems, he had to KEEP ON FIXING. He'd gotten Marvel into good shape, but he could not be content with that. Many here are familiar, I am sure, with what I used to say, back in the day. Shooter had become a tyrant with a whim of iron, constantly telling us what we were doing WRONG, with barely a nod to what we were doing right.* Meanwhile over at DC Dick Giordano was a kindly father figure, patting everyone on the head and praising what was not really praiseworthy (which is why DC was such a mess). I thought they should swap jobs every five years. _____________ * In my early days at Marvel, I became something of a "special project" for Shooter. He was constantly shredding some part of my work, and the only way I ever knew that I'd finally gotten it "right" was when he started shredding something else. Frank Miller told me he got the same.
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