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Michael Penn
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 April 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 11892
Posted: 24 November 2022 at 4:55pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Anything that "messed" with the original concept of Spider-Man, who was in many ways the quintessence of Marvel Comics, only led to more bad everywhere else.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4704
Posted: 24 November 2022 at 5:36pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Peter Parker was sent down that path well before that though when Romita took over as artist and prettied him up and he was no longer an outcast.

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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 129258
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 3:13pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Peter was looking and dressing better before Ditko left the book.
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Charles Valderrama
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4538
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

As I’ve mentioned, Roger Stern considers the publication of MARVEL TEAM-UP as the end of the real Marvel. That was the first time the integrity of a character—Spider-Man, the eternal loner—was sacrificed on the altar of Mammon.

*****
Stan Lee made it pretty easy to explore that once Spidey started meeting the FF, the Hulk, Daredevil, etc. in the early days. I think fans responded and wanted to see more interaction. What bugged me is when editors "crossed the line" and had Spidey JOIN teams like the FF, Avengers, etc. for the KEWL factor.

-C!
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 129258
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 5:51pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

Stan and the gang were building a “community” in those early comics. The fact that almost all the characters were based in New York, rather than spread across the country in fictional cities, meant it was only natural that their paths would cross.

But consider the original Avengers roster. Altho the Hulk was included, Spider-Man was not. Stan very obviously wanted to preserve his “outsider” status.

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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4704
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 6:19pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

There was a time when they used Marvel Team-Up and Marvel Two-in-One to pair B-List characters with Spider-Man (or the Human Torch) and the Thing.  It was also ocassionally used to clean up unresolved storylines in some cases, which gave us.  so we got to see the Cat, Hawkeye, Brother Voodoo, Nighthawk, Valkyrie, Frankenstein's Monster, the Man-Wolf, Tigra, the Guardians of the Galaxy, the Golem, Morbius, Black Goliath, Skull the Slayer, etc.

And with the popularity of Spider-Man it was inevitable that he was going to get a second title.  And since the Thing was very popular and his prominence with the Fantastic Four made it easy to team him up with other characters, that made sense too.

From a publishing standpoint at least.

I would agree with Charles that having Spider-Man join the Avengers crossed a line though.  Marvel published stories where Spider-Man and Daredevil turned down membership in a group for logical reason, but over that last 20-25 years we've seen little regard to what makes sence  as far as the Avengers are concerned, with the team becoming bloated.

Their biggest problem is having serialized characters age.  We became slaves to continuity, with characters like Spider-Man and the X-Men becoming so continuity heavy (and convoluded) that it becomes impossible to keep up.

Better to just not mention any other than the major events like Galactus coming to earth, Captain America returning to modern time, Gwen Stacy's death, etc.  If you bring up all 47 times the Fantastic Four have battled Doctor Doom it forces you to admit that a significant period of time has passed, and that should always remain somewhat vague.  And character having children and watching them age is a real issue.

Nobody asks how old Charlie Brown is, or counts the number of summer vacations Bart Simpson has had.  They just choose to tell stories and ignore the passing of time.



Edited by Robert Bradley on 26 November 2022 at 6:20pm
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 129258
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 7:16pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

One of the things I enjoy about BOB’S BURGERS is that every season they do Halloween, Thanksgiving and Christmas, but every season Tina is 13, Gene is 11 and Louise is 9. No explanation offered.

(Except by some nutball fans who insist all but Bob are DEAD, and the stories are his fantasies.)

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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4931
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 7:33pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

I always enjoyed Marvel Two-In-One than Marvel Team-Up for the very reason that Spider-Man is an outsider / loner. In his own titles encountering Daredevil and The Punisher worked as they fit in with Spidey's world. But MTU pushed him down paths that weren't needed.

On the other hand, MTIO fit the character of The Thing perfectly given his role in the FF, and the situations and characters he encountered.

MTIO got consistently good when Mark Gruenwald and Ralph Macchio took over shortly after issue 50.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4704
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 8:10pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

When there was a turnover in readership and that readership was younger was no demand that characters progress and evolve like there is now.

When your readers had a complete turnover every few years there wasn;t a need for characters to graduate from high school.  Clark Kent could evade Lois Lane's suspicions  abolut his secret identity without her seeming to be the worst investigative reporter ever.  Robin could forever remain in his early teens.

But aging Dick Grayson or Franklin Richards also ages Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne.  Suddenly you have a 40-year-old Batman, or a Peter Parker or Johnny Storm pushing 30, or a  nearly 50-year-old Reed Richards or Ben Grimm.  And that change fundamentaly changes many of your characters.  Steve Rogers is no longer so much a man out of his time.  Characters that are tied to specific historical events (such as World War II or Vietnam) become problematic.

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Greg McPhee
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 25 August 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 4931
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 8:39pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

When there was a turnover in readership and that readership was younger was no demand that characters progress and evolve like there is now.

=======================================================

I think the real turning point with regards to this at DC was when Robin became Nightwing. Up until that point DC characters had remained fairly fixed. Okay, Robin had gone to college and Barry Allen got married but these weren't events that disrupted the status quo too much.
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John Byrne

Grumpy Old Guy

Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 129258
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 8:44pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

The problem isn’t in the characters, but in the boneheaded “fans”—and worst, those fans turned pro—who refuse to play in he game. As they have gotten older and refused to move on to more age-appropriate hobbies—as they have insisted these stories meant originally for kids should reflect their greying sensibilities—much damage has been done.

It’s true that in the early years of Marvel Stan and the others allowed something like real time to pass in the stories. The first indication of Stan realizing this was a mistake was the introduction of Agatha Harkness. She came into the mythology as a way of getting Franklin out of the FF—death not being an option in those days—so he would not stand as a constant reminder that time was not (or worse, was) passing.

It didn’t work, of course. Writers and artists after Stan and Jack kept bringing Franklin back AND aging him. By the time I came to the FF he was nearly a teenager. I threw that into reverse with no attempt at explanation. But I still had to deal with knuckleheads who assumed the 4 1/2 shirt I gave him was a reference to his age, and insisted he resume aging from that point.

GAH!!!!

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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 7045
Posted: 26 November 2022 at 8:46pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I really don’t understand how writers do not get that aging the younger
heroes

A) means the older heroes need to age

B) fundamentally changes the character from the reason they were created

C) just means someone recreates the original character but photocopied
onto another character, usually in a diminished form



I mean, why on earth would anyone want to age Power Pack? What possible
purpose does that serve?
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