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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132329
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 6:45am | IP Logged | 1
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Even time I see Frank's Clint Eastwood inspired Logan I have to roll my eyes -- tho I'm sure Hugh Jackman is grateful.
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 7:53am | IP Logged | 2
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I don't really see the point of the "Fang" costume. Why redesign Wolverine to have a costume that openly comes from a pastiche of another company's character?
However, a question for JB: Did the color scheme of the Fang costume in any way plant some seeds for your eventual redesign of Wolverine?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132329
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 8:30am | IP Logged | 3
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I don't really see the point of the "Fang" costume. Why redesign Wolverine to have a costume that openly comes from a pastiche of another company's character?•• The face Dave gave Logan, when it was finally revealed, was a variant on Timberwolf, so the costume was a natural extension, I suppose. +++++ However, a question for JB: Did the color scheme of the Fang costume in any way plant some seeds for your eventual redesign of Wolverine? •• Possibly. Hard to say exactly when I decided brown and tan were the idea colors for Wolverine. Might have been the first time I saw him in THE INCREDIBLE HULK!!
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Eric Kleefeld
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 21 December 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 4422
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 8:59am | IP Logged | 4
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Huh, I never made the connection between Wolverine's face and Timber-Wolf.
I guess I always assumed it was a variant on the furry Hank McCoy. (And come to think of it, that was probably a variant on Timber-Wolf to begin with!)
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 12:36pm | IP Logged | 5
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Although Fang played the "Timber Wolf" role in the Imperial Guard, he was not created as a pastiche of Timber Wolf. He was based on Cockrum's own original Wolverine character, which Dave had created back in 1972 while still working at DC (see below). In a very odd coincidence, both Cockrum and Roy Thomas apparently independently came up with the idea of a character named Wolverine around the same time.
Wolverine made his debut in the Fang costume in Iron Fist #15. Wasn't that drawn before Dave or JB knew that the X-Men art assignment was going to be switched over? If so, that would suggest Dave did intend for the Fang costume to become permanent, and it wasn't created as a joking "revenge" on JB for taking his assignment.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132329
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 12:46pm | IP Logged | 6
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Wolverine made his debut in the Fang costume in Iron Fist #15. Wasn't that drawn before Dave or JB knew that the X-Men art assignment was going to be switched over? If so, that would suggest Dave did intend for the Fang costume to become permanent, and it wasn't created as a joking "revenge" on JB for taking his assignment. ••• The Fang costume first appeared in X-MEN, not IRON FIST. And at the time I drew the FIST issue my X-Assignment was a pretty much done deal. And I don't think anyone is suggesting Dave changed the costume as "revenge". The change had been planned for some time, and Dave just went ahead with it even tho he was leaving the book.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 1:19pm | IP Logged | 7
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Stephen kind of was implying there was at least a joking sort of revenge intended on Dave's part; that was what I was responding to. At any rate, Iron Fist #15 was published a month before X-Men #107, though it sounds like the X-Men issue must have been drawn first from what you're saying.
I remember that the change in plans for the costume created one of those little continuity glitches that fanboys like me notice... namely, when does IF #15 take place? At the start of X-Men #109 the team is just returning from their adventure with the Imperial Guard, so there's no way the events in IF #15 could have occurred between issues #108 and 109. Yet Wolverine immediately removes the Fang costume at the start of X-Men #109, and he clearly doesn't intend to ever wear it again. Obviously not a big deal, though at the time (not knowing the behind-the-scenes story) I wondered what was going on.
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132329
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 2:24pm | IP Logged | 8
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At any rate, Iron Fist #15 was published a month before X-Men #107…•• I wouldn't be too trusting of those cover dates. IRON FIST was twice-quarterly (eight times a year), while the X-MEN was bi-monthly (6 times a yet). Plus there were the ship weeks to factor in. I'm pretty sure the X-MEN issue came out before the IF. Not 100% -- but PRETTY sure. As to when IF 15 takes place -- between the time the X-Men returned to Earth, and when they went back to the Mansion. Doesn't work in any kind of practical sense -- but it's the only way the pieces fit together.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 2:40pm | IP Logged | 9
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FWIW, I know I read Iron Fist #15 before X-Men #107 had come out (in my neck of the woods, anyway). At the time I was a regular X-Men reader, but I only picked up the IF issue because the X-Men were in it. I vividly recall being puzzled as to why Wolverine was in a new costume without any explanation given. I also remember thinking that if Dave ever decided to quit X-Men, JB would be a good replacement.
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Steve Gumm
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 1453
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 3:51pm | IP Logged | 10
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One year at Mid Ohio, JB and Dave were both in attendance and several guys dressed up like the X-Men managed to get both John and Dave to agree to be in a group photo. It was a pretty neat moment.
Edited by Steve Gumm on 22 July 2013 at 4:01pm
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 132329
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 9:34pm | IP Logged | 11
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One year at Mid Ohio, JB and Dave were both in attendance and several guys dressed up like the X-Men managed to get both John and Dave to agree to be in a group photo. It was a pretty neat moment.••• A moment I felt should really have belonged exclusively to Dave, but the fans were so eager to have both of us in the picture I felt I had to go along.
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Robert Bradley
Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 20 September 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 4830
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| Posted: 22 July 2013 at 10:15pm | IP Logged | 12
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Iron Fist #15 went on sale 5/31/1977
X-Men 107 went on sale 7/19/1977
Strange that he would debut in the costume before the story where he appropriated it!
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