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Brian Miller
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| Posted: 13 November 2020 at 11:18pm | IP Logged | 1
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Nazis were members of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
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Michael Roberts
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| Posted: 13 November 2020 at 11:32pm | IP Logged | 2
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Nazis were members of the National Socialist German Workers' Party.
-----
Which was not at all socialist, despite the name.
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Brian Miller
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| Posted: 14 November 2020 at 8:46am | IP Logged | 3
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Technically, yes, you’re right. But so is the buffoon from Alabama.
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Brian Floyd
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| Posted: 14 November 2020 at 9:25am | IP Logged | 4
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The `socialism' that the fool from Alabama - and most Republicans, at least the conservative ones - is against is Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs that help people. ie, what they mean when they talk about reducing government.
In other words, if you're not well off or rich and able to pay to take care of yourself, you can fuck off and die.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 14 November 2020 at 10:16am | IP Logged | 5
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The wide-spread, deeply wrong, misunderstanding that fascist Nazis were in some way "socialists" has caused considerable damage in allowing the true motives of fascism to spread.
Far right Adolf Hitler and far left Joseph Stalin were both authoritarian madmen who murdered their own people -- but the ideological roots of their politics were diametrically opposed.
Where Fascism centers on an absolute ruler of a glorious nation whose greatness is proof of religious prophecy or historical perfection-- It is fundamentally hierarchical and elite system. Socialism's central aim is the intended elimination of hierarchy, the distribution of wealth and the use of government to empower these goals.
The irony that these opposite motives ending up in similar states of failure and evil cannot change the facts.
WWII was not, in any way, an U.S. effort to save Europe from socialism.
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Joe Zhang
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| Posted: 14 November 2020 at 9:06pm | IP Logged | 6
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Recently WWII history has become an obsession for me. I totally agree the Nazis didn't stand for anything other than themselves. But socialism was one of the things that they were messing around with early in their history. In fact, the reason why the Nazi flag has so much red in it was not because of their proclivity for murder. Hitler chose it to represent socialism.
Edited by Joe Zhang on 14 November 2020 at 9:07pm
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Rebecca Jansen
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| Posted: 14 November 2020 at 10:56pm | IP Logged | 7
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Holding off on posting this but... my great uncle was a socialist murdered by the Nazis; he was involved in a transit shut down in protest of Nazis marching away the Jewish men late one night in occupied Holland. He was beaten to death in a work camp he was forcibly removed to following the shut down and returned in a sealed coffin under armed guard during the funeral (later dug up at great risk and the handiwork of those 'fellow socialists' seen).
As someone who carries a photo of the grave marker I'm particularly tired of people who throw around the Nazis were socialists business. They fought and killed communists with red flags in the streets of Weimar Germany in the 1920s. They were socialists only in the same sense Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge were 'democratic people's liberators'. Words on pieces of paper do not tell the real story, they only easily fool people far removed from the reality, like Reagan who actually recognized the Khmer Rouge's Kampuchia for years over the far more moderate Vietnamese communist backed survivors of Cambodia trying to rid their land of Pol Pot.
So, if you want to read that the Nazi party were committed socialists... well you might just as well buy into Imperial Japan's benevolent co-prosperity sphere for Asia... in other words pretend the rape of Nanking and all the other atrocities against China and Korea and the Philippines don't really count, only some words on paper meant to deceive. And then Trump can have accomplished 'so much' and drained the swamp and built a wall and all that other revolutionary movement stuff which everyone living it ought to know as empty words (while the refrigerated trucks and food bank line-ups grow to the tune of the Horst Wesel march).
>:^(
Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 14 November 2020 at 11:00pm
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Tim O Neill
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| Posted: 15 November 2020 at 12:15am | IP Logged | 8
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Thank you for sharing that, Rebecca - both your family history as well as the
historical perspective.
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Tim O Neill
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| Posted: 15 November 2020 at 12:17am | IP Logged | 9
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A reminder for everyone - please no Wikipedia. You can make your point
without it.
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Neil Lindholm
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| Posted: 15 November 2020 at 12:36am | IP Logged | 10
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I think that reminder was for me. Here is the information showing the 25 points for the National Socialists, not from Wikipedia.
Again, the difference between socialism and fascism is a matter of degrees. If people choose to use the word socialism to describe something else, that's on them. The end result is always the same, as can be seem in all of wreckage of various People's Republics throughout history. We would have been better off in the future if we had teamed up with the Germans in WW2 to get rid of communism in the Soviet Union and then turned on the Germans afterwords. Would have saved hundreds of millions of lives.
As I mentioned before, socialism is not what is practiced in social democratic countries like in Scandinavia. They are more or less capitalistic countries. Definitions and words matter.
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Mark Haslett
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| Posted: 15 November 2020 at 2:07am | IP Logged | 11
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Yes, definitions matter.
You seem to be interchanging "socialism" and "communism" -- but then you single out Scandinavian socialism as somehow not the same -- while Russian socialism, apparently, is just fascism by another name... and therefor Nazis are socialists?
That's not consistent or accurate.
Hitler did not persuade people to follow him with "the 25 points of NSDAP."
Stalin was the revolutionary leader of a Communist country (having skipped through Marx's advised intermediate stage of socialist democracy).
"Similar results" from Hitler and Stalin come from a shared madness, a hateful will to power and careers fueled by genocide.
But the socialist principles that drove Lenin/Trotsky (and their insane comrade Stalin) did not underpin Hitler's Nazism while (for better or worse) they do underpin socialism as practiced everywhere, including Europe today.
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Neil Lindholm
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| Posted: 15 November 2020 at 3:46am | IP Logged | 12
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Scandinavians are not socialists. They will be the first to tell you so.
One of many articles explaining this fact. Fascism and actual socialism are of the same ideology, with minor differences. What is practiced in Scandinavia is not socialism at all, but more of a partial welfare state.
Fascism and Socialism and Communism are all collectivist ideologies, with subtle differences between them. Nazis were socialist. Communists are socialists. Nazis were also fascists. A National Socialist is just that, a socialist with nationalistic undertones. All are fundamentally violent ideologies (they have to be) and should be denounced whenever they rear their ugly heads. Just don't mistake a national medical program for socialism. Nothing of the sort.
Edited by Neil Lindholm on 15 November 2020 at 3:54am
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