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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Greg, I feel your pain regarding "Sins Past." That was a gnarled and twisted, ugly little story. It made Gwen complicit in never revealing what had supposedly taken place and it made her death an even more misogynistic exercise in cruelty. I'm not certain Marvel considers the story canon at this point. I have a vague sense that it was wished away into a cornfield pretty quickly after it was written.
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It’s my personal Worst Spider-Man Story Ever. The story which made me quit modern comics. And that’s saying something. Not only did it again trot out a classic story and characters which had already been endlessly strip-mined, but it warped all of the characters to fit the story it was telling, and added multiple layers of ick and creepiness to the lore. There’s Mary Jane not bothering to ever mention anything about the tryst to Peter (to say nothing of two innocent kids languishing in Europe and being fed lies to turn them against Spider-Man) to Gwen Stacy being a liar and cheater who expected and assumed that Peter would help her raise the twins she’d secretly conceived with the father of Peter’s best friend.

Not to mention that it gutted the core theme of “The Night Gwen Stacy Died”. The whole point was that she was an innocent caught in the crossfire of the Spider-Man/Goblin war, and died without even knowing the how or why of it. JMS retconned it into a Gwen/Goblin war, with Osborn killing her because she was keeping him from their secret kids, with Spider-Man retconned into a clueless cuckold.

And then there was a weird and pedophilic flirtation between Peter and Gwen’s age-accelerated daughter, who looked exactly like her. 

UGH. So ****ing bad.
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 4:35pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Thanks for sharing, but not that one.

I remember some words. Hulk said something like, "Hulk knows he is a freak, knows he is not beauty..."
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I believe you’re thinking of INCREDIBLE HULK # 189, where the Hulk befriends a blind girl, then leaves her at the end, musing that she sees him as a man, but he’s really only a monster.
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Doug Centers
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Joined: 17 February 2014
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Posts: 5475
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 5:20pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Yeah, Greg that was a good one. It was the second Hulk book I had bought.

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Robbie Parry
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Joined: 17 June 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 12186
Posted: 11 February 2018 at 5:40pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Yeah, that was probably the one! Thanks. :)
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Adam Schulman
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Joined: 22 July 2017
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Posted: 11 February 2018 at 10:48pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

"None Are So Blind!" by Len Wein. One of my favorite Hulk stories. It just has one problem: it takes place in Siberia.

How does the Hulk know Russian? Maybe Bruce Banner knows Russian? Maybe he was speaking "caveman Russian" in that story, like he speaks "caveman English" most of the time?

Пустой человек! Халк будет разбит !!
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 12:44am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

 Robbie Parry wrote:
Thanks for sharing, but not that one.

I remember some words. Hulk said something like, "Hulk knows he is a freak, knows he is not beauty..." 


The story you're thinking of is "Thunder of Dawn" from The Hulk! magazine issue 10 (the first full-color issue, and the first issue without the "Rampaging" descriptor).  By Doug Moench and Ron Wilson.  That story brought a tear to my eye the first time I read it too.  Take a look at the original art I found online... you remembered the dialogue from panel four of the last page perfectly:




Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 12 February 2018 at 12:46am
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 12:52am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 Adam Schulman wrote:
"None Are So Blind!" by Len Wein. One of my favorite Hulk stories. It just has one problem: it takes place in Siberia.

How does the Hulk know Russian? Maybe Bruce Banner knows Russian?


That is exactly the explanation that is given on the letters page of issue #191 (when the question was raised in a letter from future Marvel staffer Peter Sanderson).  Banner knows Russian, so Hulk knows Russian too, and he used it unconsciously when he was spoken to in that language.


Edited by Jason Czeskleba on 12 February 2018 at 12:56am
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Jason Scott
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Joined: 06 August 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 1167
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 2:51am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Those Hulk issues are indeed really sad, and show the lonely pathos of the character well.

Gwen Stacey will always strike a chord(!) because of how cruel it was. Having Peter seemingly accidentally kill her when trying to save her. That's harsh all right. And would forever haunt you.
(Let's not mention the abomination of Sins Past.)

Personally I always liked Spider-man and Black Cat. It was fun having Peter in a relationship where he really could loosen up. And I absolutely hate that Marvel's current higher ups seemingly ordered the character assassination of turning her into an out and out villain. The timing of it seemed suspicious too. Like Felicia turns up in Amazing Spider-man 2, as a not too unsympathetic character, and is then instantly turned into a murderess in the books. As if they wanted to preemptively sabotage any chance Sony had of launching her as a spin off heroine. It'll be interesting to hear Dan Slott's account of that once enough time has past after he leaves.

Similarly I always liked Captain America (Steve Rogers) and Diamondback (Rachel Leighton,) as it seemed to bring out both a lighter side of Cap, together with making Rachel really question her criminal past and try to change for the better. It was genuine growth from a romantic relationship. But of course later writers screwed it up, so we can have another variant on the eternally boring Sharon Carter partnership. (Sigh!)

I mean what is the John Greenleaf Whittier quote again?..."For all sad words of tongue and pen, the saddest are these, 'What might have been..."
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Matthew Wilkie
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Joined: 09 March 2011
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1139
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 5:15pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

I had enjoyed the Sider-Man / Black Cat romance which I followed in UK reprints and remember being somewhat forlorn when Black Cat's new power (gained from the Kingpin?) prevented her from being close to anyone for too long as it made them unlucky.  
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Brian Floyd
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Joined: 07 July 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 8356
Posted: 12 February 2018 at 8:09pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Gwen's death, as powerful as it was, was cheapened by both Norman Osborn turning up alive AND the "Sins Past" storyline. The latter should either be permanently ignored, or eventually revealed as a complex ruse by Norman. ("Sins Past" required retconning to even be possible, as originally Gwen was only in Europe for a few weeks.).

+++++++++

This is the story which made me quit modern comics. I found it so distasteful and so wrongheaded that I realized that any semblance of respect for what had come before was draining out of the industry at an alarming rate. Of course, Spider-Man had been broken long before “Sins Past”, but this was my point of no return, as a reader. I haven’t looked back, and I’m happier for it.

I love Conway’s original Clone Saga from 1975, and that absolutely should have been the final word on Gwen Stacy, aside from the occasional flashback or passing reference. And, bringing Osborn back completely undercuts the themes of the story in which he and Gwen both died. Again, Roger Stern absolutely had the right idea by bringing back and modernizing the whole Green Goblin schtick in the form of the Hobgoblin, but leaving Norman dead, and Harry married and happy.

++++++++++++++++
Before "Sins Past", Gwen was seen as an innocent victim. If the events in "Sins Past" really transpired, it would be more of a "now I'm glad the bitch is dead" situation than anything.

Brand New Day/One More Day was the genesis of me stopping reading comics on a regular basis. I quit buying as many titles as I used to a few months later. But I never bought a single issue of a Spider-Man title (Issues with Spider-Man in it, such as an issue of AVENGERS, yes, but no Spider-Man books) after that crap. I only know about "Sins Past" due to reading a few synopses of it, plus a blog someone posted here once.

If I hadn't stopped back when I did, then surely the Hydra Cap arc would have done the job. 


Edited by Brian Floyd on 12 February 2018 at 8:14pm
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Brian Hague
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Joined: 14 November 2006
Posts: 8515
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 6:23pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

This thread has begun discussing the break-ups our own love affairs with the comics industry. :-)

I'd forgotten that so many heroes had relationships with villainesses ("villainessi?") Spider-Man & the Black Cat. Cap & Diamondback. Iron Man & Madame Masque (my personal favorite of the Marvel romance-foes.) Batman & Catwoman, of course, but also Talia. And of course, he would scratch the itch to lock lips with Poison Ivy every now and then... Superman was generally too smart for such things, except with the Starry-Eyed Siren From Space and later, Maxima. Green Lantern's ladylove was also the Star Sapphire. The Black Canary started out as an apparent thief that Johnny Thunder was smitten by. Nearly every female criminal mastermind he fought had a thing for the Spirit...

Kind of puts a new spin to the term "Playa On the Other Side..." :-)


Edited by Brian Hague on 13 February 2018 at 6:24pm
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Greg Kirkman
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Joined: 12 May 2006
Location: United States
Posts: 15775
Posted: 13 February 2018 at 7:05pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

I only know about "Sins Past" due to reading a few synopses of it, plus a blog someone posted here once.
+++++++++++++

You mean my own epic blog rant against that story? Writing that was very cathartic, at the time.
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