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Bob Simko
Byrne Robotics Security

Negative Mod

Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 5882
Posted: 03 June 2020 at 7:53pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

As a white man of social privilege you have the ability to speak up. You have a
platform to reach audiences others don't. You have a pulpit others don't...and
you can use that to say "No more". It's long past the time to to leverage the
leverage "white privilege" or "social privilege" or whatever the hell it's called
gives into the call to say "No more". Feeling guilty or apologizing about
white/social privilege helps no one...if society is going to give me that kind of
pass...or power...then that's an opportunity to use it for what's right and just.

If my hands get dirty...good.

No more.
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David Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 16 April 2004
Posts: 2550
Posted: 03 June 2020 at 10:47pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Today on twitter, right-wingers tried to get hashtags for "white lives matter" and "white out wednesday" trending, and were actually posting white squares, in case anybody doubted they were complete pieces of shit. The hashtags were co-opted by K-pop fans, who flooded Twitter with pictures of their favorite groups and drowned out the racists with support for BLM. This is the free marketplace of ideas conceived by John Stuart Mill.
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4570
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 8:18am | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Joe Z. - I don't care for those who die due to their own actions. They had a decision to make - go out unmasked, or stay at home in self-imposed quarantine. They made their choice.

No, my regret is those who will die DUE to those people. Someone's grandmother didn't go out... but is likely enough to catch corona. That's where my rage lies.

Meanwhile, I still think the start are two short sentences that would do a world of good.

Second most important: Let's talk.
Most important: Let's listen.
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Michael Roberts
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 20 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 13759
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 9:02am | IP Logged | 4 post reply


 QUOTE:
That's where my rage lies.

That's where your rage lies? All the people I know considering participating in the protests, myself included, have been fully aware of the possibility and consequences of COVID-19 spreading at these protests. It's a struggle between fighting a moral injustice and making sure we don't further a pandemic. At least most of the protestors I've seen have been trying to minimize the risks by wearing masks, and in the smaller protests, keeping 6 feet apart. Meanwhile, there are still people praising those "I want a haircut" idiot protestors and beach party morons as supporting freedom.

Maybe channel the rage at the continued police brutality that forces people to choose between speaking out and spreading disease or ignoring the continued injustice and staying safe?


 QUOTE:
Most important: Let's listen.

Which is hilarious because I can mine several dozen threads right here, where I and other POC are trying to explain perspectives from a non-privileged point of view, and they get dismissed as "manufactured outrage" or "political correctness" or "victimhood" or "not true because I've never seen that" or dismissed because white people have to deal with that too or any of the other dozen ways these types of discussions on race and racism and prejudice get filtered through a white perspective.

I mean, it's wonderful that people are realizing they need to listen, but asking people to listen is not something new or infrequent. That it takes massive protests across the country for people to wake up to the necessity of listening tells you the importance of the protests.


Edited by Michael Roberts on 04 June 2020 at 9:05am
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Joe Zhang
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Joined: 16 April 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 12559
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 9:16am | IP Logged | 5 post reply

THE JOKER is a movie. How did we end up living in it?
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Eric Sofer
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 31 January 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 4570
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 9:19am | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Michael - I always rage when innocent victims are killed. And that includes those black lives that matter. I am also enraged at what happened to George Floyd.

You participated - and I say good for you. If I weren't semi-crippled right now, I'd likely have been in downtown Cleveland protesting also. But I'm stuck at home, and the only one I see is my wife (and my doctors.) I wash frequently, I sanitize my hands... can you say the same? Are you isolated? Or are you seeing any single other person? And six feet apart - not even close.

I can rage at both. I have long said that there's nothing worse than a dirty cop, and I damn near jumped for joy last night when I heard the other three were being accused of aiding and abetting. In US law, I believe that a&a in commission of a felony means that they're just as guilty.

And you say "Let's listen" is hilarious. Okay... where would you start? There's a lot that needs to be done, and as an old white American male, I know that I do not have a proper perspective on this matter. That's why I want to listen. Dirty cops are a start, but not the only problem.

NONE of this is easy. And we're in the middle of at least three crises that I can count (corona, dirty cops, and President Murder.) I'm listening to YOU - where would you start with this? What would you do to begin healing?

I'm neither mocking nor tasking you, and as noted - I'm ignorant as a bucket of dung. I have intellectually known the problem, and I could never associate to it emotionally. Seriously - where do we start?


Edited by Eric Sofer on 04 June 2020 at 9:21am
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 10:52am | IP Logged | 7 post reply

Once you've given yourself permission to be warrior for the social justice of all oppressed people you are on the road to the ends justify the means and becoming that bit more like your evil 'enemy'. Congratulation.

I say this as a white woman on the ignore lists of men shaming other men about the poor treatment of women. Being in the middle you have to be tough though because you get from all the extremes which feed off each other.

Oh look over there, another outrage from The Joker, er I mean Trump everyone! Oh goody this means I get to call names more and go that but further over the lines myself.

Do I talk too tough for y'all? Wouldn't want anyone to think of feel shame while they are having a good fight against a cartoon straw person. Actually this is called caring. No caring would be not bothering or having a long ignore list while acting like a Trumpian tough guy typing outrage on the internet.

Yes, my parents in their '70s might be the ones to pay the price for all the protesting on behalf of others, but then if I had done a more diligent job lobbying my own government perhaps the Natives at our protests putting their elders at some extra risk wouldn't have to be there. I've been at it for over thirty years, not terribly exciting but serious private letters as myself or sometimes representing others who asked, with no yelling or chanting in them, but hopefully educating. Hey, there's an idea. Also being on an anti-hate community group and volunteering with P-FLAG. Letters in papers.

I see a bunch of typical outraged manufacturers online among the John Byrne fans here. When it really matters they just want to fan the flames which were certainly high enough anyway for people who do pay attention I think. Burn baby burn. Burn the lines of communication, justify going lower as getting your hands dirty, but the people who do the real work, the actual decades long building of bridges and thinking ability are literally being tossed aside left and right. You like to say f you to someone at a distance that won't answer back, or 'you're on my ignore' to people who may in fact be the people you pretend to do something for in attacking others with confrontation and judgement. How about my words built on real experience and not some twitter crap that has suckered a nation? The easy road is not at all what I am holding to. It is two wrong never ever make a right. You make enemies when you sanction someone destroying the business and livlihood of others in your community (that is if you community extends beyond a small group of identicals or ideologues in lockstep). So let me say this. Civilization is still slip sliding away and you are more and more like the self-righteous people so sure they are right, tuning out everything but what stokes your fire. All those visions of a perfect society, might even say a great society to copy both LBJ and Trumpo, up in flames due to weak people going for what feels good in the moment. Well, as Trump has almost made a catch phrase of... "Enjoy! What a great turn out."

For the vast ( I still hope) majority of non ragers and grand-standers sincere in education though THANK YOU. Do not get tarred by the self-appointed warriors, they have their reward like the prayers in public, if they really care about others they wouldn't trample over so many and have amassed such a large percentage of the community as an 'ememy' now including all police, anyone who criticizes. Bush Jr. is the kid of stupid who said you are either with us or against us... how in the heck does this fit in with so many claiming to be on the left lately? How do you get to enshrining discrimination on religious grounds against while actually despising the religious? How do you get to a dumb follow the leader and echo their slogans that fit on a sign or hat, or add to the name-calling of which there is more all the time and communication less?

Sorry. It's because I do care, even about that country with all the blood in it's past called the United States Of America. And if anyone does want to communicate with me I am always open to it from anybody. More name-calling and bullying... sure it can be understandable, but it's not and never has been anything you can build something lasting on.

This could be a clue looking for you: if the foo sh*ts wear it. Take it especially if you are one of those giving it with such zeal and supposed high idealism. You like truth spoken to power,well, I'd say you are in power here. Walk the talk fellow fans. This "prize nitwit" and "totally insane" individual (I really enjoyed these comments in a nasty little group of angry rejects from one forum I'm still in) is trying to ring your bell out of foolish hope. Did every angry little person in the world get their computer and think, wow, now I have the power to spend hours manufacturing hate and blame just like the people I hate and blame do? You don't make anything but the same sh*t sandwich using those same ingredients.

It is a bloody long walk back from where we all are right now, I can tell you that! You may think you have nothing to lose except I think you may not have ever met people on this planet who really do have nothing at all. And your (our) oldest enemies are thrilled seeing you destroy each other. We have to shine a light without burning someone else's house or it isn't truly enlightening.

I reject the vigilante warriors. My 'side' is civilization and intelligence. I will never be moved from that, that is strength. Oh, and trying is everything. Are you really trying?
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James Woodcock
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 21 September 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 6184
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 11:04am | IP Logged | 8 post reply

what Do people actually want?
People are saying these protests are too far & something less should
be organised.

Well that was tried. A simple taking of the knee. & something that small
resulted in insults & being called unpatriotic.

So I assume something smaller than that.

Which is what now? Nothing?

Because that really is not working well @ all. So something has to
happen.
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David Allen Perrin
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 15 April 2009
Location: United States
Posts: 3325
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

“People”....would prefer that those “other people” would run fast, sing pretty, rap fluidly, dance wonderfully, dunk hard, dress cool, speak colorfully but most of all...SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP....and let American life continue as scripted.   

In other words...”Stop bitching about the lives we are allowing you to have!  You had a black President for fucks sake!”
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 12:01pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

The family of George Floyd aren't looting, they aren't setting fires to anything, how is someone doing or condoning those actions more on their 'side' than someone who is not and saying it is destructive? There are people who need to be heard that haven't been, don't jump in front of their telling their own story, don't talk over them. I have listened and learned from and felt for the Floyd family. I don't like distractions from that. I've been listening at least since Do The Right Thing and maybe even Gtand Master Flash And The Furious Five might count. Trayvon Martin should've had everyone's attention.

Civilization, community, trust... it takes time to build and requires acts of hope over acts of rage or sheer egotistical self-righteousness. So many long built careers of skilled and experienced people have been tossed out by Trump, both Republican and democratic affiliated, replaced by motivated fanatics who are not qualified fro the positions. We have show respect for the seniority of people in each community who have been fighting the good fight the longest for one thing, I see some of that but I also people who seem totally ignorant of the value of these often wiser voices (Kareem is very wise and it seems most can agree on that). Maybe we head into another Wounded Knee, but we definitely know another Detroit 1967 won't do a thing.

An left answer to Rush Limbaugh is not what is going to lead anywhere, some book hustler who tells half truths and manufactures all kinds of us vs. them and outrage. The cycle of feeding them the 'fun' of seeing 'those libruls' reacting is certainly proven hopeless.
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Brian Miller
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 28 July 2004
Location: United States
Posts: 28196
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 12:02pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Apparently, there's been a mass email going to all concealed/open
carry permit holders in our state to come to my town on Saturday to
protect it during the high school kids' protest on Saturday. My oldest
was wanting to go, but now, I don't think it's going to happen.

I hate this fucking area.
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Rebecca Jansen
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 2632
Posted: 04 June 2020 at 12:05pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Putting exaggerated words into the mouth of a straw man is Rush Limpdick's game. Don't be such a sucker. Words are easy, actions, positive actions over times, are something real that can be built upon.

Quit whipping yourselves into a frenzy over imagined cartoonish villains. There are enough real villains and we need to come together to face those, not by becoming more absolutist nor more exaggerated.
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