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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 808
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 3:30pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

Regarding evidence- 

One of the most common types of voter fraud is ballot harvesting.  Elections that rely on large numbers of mail in ballots are particularly vulnerable to this.  The person committing the fraud will gather ballots from nursing homes, etc., fill them in, and then submit them by mail, or drop them off at a polling station.  

It is very difficult to obtain evidence of the fraud, because the person who was the victim (the person whose ballot was stolen) is unlikely to vote.  Hence, the fact that someone else cast their ballot doesn't come to light unless there is some other impropriety that draws attention to the situation. 

In Nevada the Department of Elections has received signed affidavits from poll workers (not poll watchers) who saw evidence of ballot harvesting in the form of people dropping off multiple ballots, or in one case, people filling out stacks of ballots in the parking lot of the polling station. 

This is persuasive evidence, and it is precisely the type of evidence one would expect to see in a ballot harvesting case. 

So yes, there is evidence of fraud and impropriety.  And nobody knows how widespread it is, because the way this election was conducted was so exceptional (in Nevada unsolicited mail in ballots were sent to every registered voter; meaning that there were tens of thousands of unsecured ballots floating around the state that could potentially be harvested).  

However, as has been noted in this thread, to pursue a court case for election fraud, one must show not only that fraud occurred, but also that the amount of fraud is enough to alter the results of the race.  So the fact that cases are being tossed out is not indicative that there was no fraud or impropriety in the election; just that there was not enough to make a difference.  

I will concede to anyone that the amount of fraud is nowhere near the level that has been alleged by the Trump campaign. I applaud the decision to fire Sidney Powell.  Rudy G. should also be shown the door. Their public rhetoric is all bluster, and needlessly undermines public confidence.  

That's different from what is happening in court.  It is common for lawsuits (even meritorious lawsuits) to be filed based on unproven allegations.  You can't file a lawsuit that says "maybe" something happened.  You have to allege every cause of action that you believe you might be able to prove after discovery has occurred.  

In many cases, a plaintiff must file the suit in order to get access to the evidence they need, because you can't issue subpoenas, conduct depositions, etc., until after there is a lawsuit.  In an election fraud case, you'd have to file right away, in order to have a claim heard before the election is certified, before evidence is disposed of, etc.  

Responsible attorneys will amend or withdraw claims that can't be proven once the evidence has been gathered if it is clear they do not have a case.  That is exactly what we are seeing, as many of the Trump lawsuits have been voluntarily withdrawn, or replaced by other claims that the lawyers apparently believe are stronger.

The fact that the cases are being dismissed is good news.  It is evidence that fraud was not widespread enough to impact the election.  It is NOT evidence that claims were baseless or that they were filed in bad faith.

The allegations about the Dominion software are the last hurrah for Trump.  

There is certainly enough reason for them to want to look into this, considering the history of Dominion, including prominent Democrats advocating against the use of the machines (because they were not secure and were vulnerable to hacking), the state of TX refusing to certify the machines for use in that state, and the fact that there was a "glitch" this year in Wisconsin that switched Trump votes to Biden (local officials caught it and fixed it).   

It appears the states will be able to refute any claims based on corruption of the Dominion machines.  Once this occurs, there will be nothing left for Trump to challenge.  

Previously, I predicted Trump would concede by Dec 1.  I stand by that.  However, I forgot about the Thanksgiving Holiday impacting court schedules, so it might be the 3rd or 4th.  We'll see.  

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Geoffrey Langford
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Joined: 20 December 2013
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 235
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 3:31pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

My hope is the Supreme Court does vote to send the appointment of a President to the House.

Why?

Because I think there was widespread fraud from BOTH sides during the voting.  However, I truly do believe the Democratic party had so much on the line they may have pushed it too far.  Additionally, the voters took matter into their own hands.  I personally know two people who mail in voted in California and then drove to Nevada on vote day and voted - since ID is not required.

So, as a lesson to all the cheats out there - the election results should be declared invalid - the House should vote.

Send a message to the cheaters.




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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 808
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 3:47pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

"Trump's current legal "strategy" is to prevent certain states from certifying their election results, which would either prevent them from appointing  the electors pledged to Biden/Harris by the Dec. 8 deadline or allegedly "let" GOP controlled legislatures appoint the electors pledged to Trump/Pence."

I certainly hope this is not the case.  I wouldn't put it past Trump to try this strategy, but I don't believe the state legislatures would be complicit.    
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Rebecca Jansen
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Joined: 12 February 2018
Location: Canada
Posts: 4525
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 4:24pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

"Oh, a lot of people are saying there was lots of fraud." "I think..." etc. etc.

Very detailed definition for "a lot of people" needed a.s.a.p.

I no longer consider the following "people" in the "people are talking" sense these are now "people making everything up":

Trump himself or his children

anybody appointed by or dependent upon Trump for their position

Rudy Guliani

Republicans fearfully dependant on a Trump base of voters

any media owned in any percentile by Rupert Murdoch

any Russian media or "author" of "content"

conspiracy website fans/provocateurs/trolls

Twitter and Facebook posts

Just factor all those out and it's been the most straight and honest U.S. election in ages!

I think means actually thinking, not parroting some processed talking points intended to bypass thinking based on real evidence from sources that earned trust over a considerable length of time.


Edited by Rebecca Jansen on 23 November 2020 at 4:27pm
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Jason Czeskleba
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Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 4:52pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

 John Wickett wrote:
or in one case, people filling out stacks of ballots in the parking lot of the polling station.
Republicans have circulated a redacted copy of an affidavit purporting to be from a Nevada poll worker who claimed to have witnessed people filling out stacks of ballots near a Biden/Harris van.  The name of the poll worker was redacted on the affidavit.  To my knowledge, this person's identity has not been disclosed, nor has any formal complaint been made to law enforcement officials or the state attorney general.  Absent any formal, official complaint or disclosure of the source, this affidavit amounts to nothing more than an unsourced rumor, tarted up to look like a legal document.  Is this poll worker a real person?  Are they lying?  We have no way of knowing, and it seems quite suspicious to me.  Given the way rumor and innuendo are being spread by Trump and his team, I would not put it past them to fake an affidavit, or take one from an unreliable source and claim it was genuine.  If there was evidence of fraud such as claimed in this affidavit, why has it not been presented, and why has no legal action been taken?  Why is the affidavit only being used in the press to inflame suspicion, rather than in court? 


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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15801
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 4:56pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

John Wickett wrote: And nobody knows how widespread it is, because the way this election was conducted was so exceptional (in Nevada unsolicited mail in ballots were sent to every registered voter; meaning that there were tens of thousands of unsecured ballots floating around the state that could potentially be harvested
----------------------------------------------------------
For Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Utah and Washington, sending ballots to registered voters is standard practice and has a long history of reliability. Quite sensibly given the deadly pandemic, this was extended to several other states for this election.

As CISA has stated, there are many safeguards in place to ensure accuracy and to identify and correct irregularities.
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Jason Czeskleba
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 30 April 2004
Posts: 4548
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:00pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

 Geoffrey Langford wrote:
Additionally, the voters took matter into their own hands.  I personally know two people who mail in voted in California and then drove to Nevada on vote day and voted - since ID is not required.

Perhaps you know two people who claim to have voted twice, but it's not as easy as you seem to think.  ID is required to vote in Nevada, and a person needs to be registered to vote.  You can't register to vote in two different states.  A person could only vote twice if they falsely assumed the identity of another registered voter.  They would need an ID card for the person whose identity they were assuming, and they would need to know that person was not going to vote themselves.  I suspect the two people you know are lying.

The silliest thing about the fraud claims is... if the Democrats were actually able to commit fraud on a large enough scale to affect the outcome of the presidential election, why did they not also cheat and gain control of the Senate, as well as a wider margin in the House? 
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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 808
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Jason,

ID is only required if the signature doesn't match.  Also, the two people mentioned by GL may have cast their own ballots.  They could be registered in Nevada, but recently moved to CA, where they also registered.  That would enable them to vote in 2 states without committing identity fraud, but their NV ballots would not be considered legal ballots.  

As far as the poll worker is concerned, the identity has been redacted on documents presented to the media, but you could not redact it in a court document, so its unlikely the affidavit was faked, but that doesn't mean the person who wrote the affidavit actually witnessed the behavior she was testifying about.  She could be an actual poll worker who is lying about what she saw.

As with any piece of evidence, the finder of fact (judge or jury) must decide how credible it is.  

Right now there is no reason do disbelieve the affiant IMO, as ballot harvesting is a well known type of election fraud that probably occurs on some scale in every presidential election, but not on a level that would change the result of this race.


Edited by John Wickett on 23 November 2020 at 5:19pm
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John Wickett
Byrne Robotics Member


Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 808
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:23pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Peter Martin, there are states that handle mail in voting exceptionally well, and that have safeguards against ballot harvesting and other forms of fraud.  Florida is one you didn't mention that is considered excellent.

I agree it was the sensible thing to do this year.  In fact, I would be in favor of increasing the use of mail in voting nationwide, because based on what we saw this year, it would increase voter turnout dramatically.  

States that have never done large scale mail in voting should learn about and implement the safeguards that are used in states that have a lot of experience with this type of election, to ensure we eliminate vulnerabilities as much as possible.  
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Peter Martin
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Joined: 17 March 2008
Location: Canada
Posts: 15801
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 5:46pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

CNN are reporting that the GSA has informed President-elect Biden that the Trump administration is ready to being the transition process.
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Brad Wilders
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Joined: 15 December 2008
Posts: 173
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 7:04pm | IP Logged | 11 post reply

"There is certainly enough reason for them to want to look into this, considering the history of Dominion, including ... the fact that there was a "glitch" this year in Wisconsin that switched Trump votes to Biden (local officials caught it and fixed it)."

There was no glitch that switched ballots.  The issue your describing occurred in Michigan, and it was a human error during tabulation that was immediately corrected--exactly the type of errors that occur in all elections with all voting methods and for which the system of checks is designed to, and did in this case, catch. https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-donald-trump-technology -voting-michigan-6beeef230376e75252d6eaa91db3f88f.

Moreover, lest there be any doubt, the Georgia HAND recount confirmed the accuracy of the Dominion machines.  If they had been rigged, the hand recount would have revealed the computer malfeasance, no?  Notably, none of the legal cases of which I'm aware have included the Dominion allegations because you can't make an allegation in court without some good faith, factual, basis, which is also why the Trump campaign has DISCLAIMED that they are alleging fraud in everyone of their court cases.

You are also misinformed about Nevada where it is LEGAL to let a third party deliver your ballot for you ("ballot harvesting").   https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ballot-harvesting-collect ion-absentee-voting-explained-rules.  A poll worker who is concealing his/her identity and refusing to make a formal complaint that describes fraud for something that is legal....maybe they lack credibility, huh?  In any event, the signature on the ballot envelope still has to match the one on file with the elections office, which protects against filing out some stranger's ballot.

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John Wickett
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Joined: 12 July 2016
Location: United States
Posts: 808
Posted: 23 November 2020 at 7:12pm | IP Logged | 12 post reply

Brad, to clarify, I never said it was illegal to deliver someone else's ballot in Nevada.  I agree with you.  But if someone walks into a polling place with a large number of ballots its an indication that ballot harvesting may be occurring. 

  


Edited by John Wickett on 23 November 2020 at 7:22pm
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