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Steven Brake
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 4:31pm | IP Logged | 1 post reply

@Michael:

Thanks for expanding upon Hales v Petit.

I'll reiterate that I don't disagree that the plays show a good understanding of law, but also that, as anti-Stratfordians acknowledge -  and sometimes make much of - Shakespeare was a litigious man. As you say, speculation that he was a law clerk as a young man is - well, precisely that. We can't prove he was, we can't prove he wasn't. And, again as you point out, there's nothing to have stopped Will from asking questions from friends, or friends of friends.


Edited by Steven Brake on 27 January 2021 at 4:32pm
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 4:33pm | IP Logged | 2 post reply

Disingenuous? The fact is he used "Shaxper", so it is proper and helpful to refer to the Stratford man by that spelling so that he is afforded less unconscious bias in the discussion-- reducing the "Of course Shakespeare-wrote-Shakespeare" fake-logic.

But we can't escape it. You take a different spelling from a source not of the man's creation to "prove" that "Shakespeare" is more proper.

You also make too much of Jonson's remarks and the errors. But that is all you can do in this argument.

You fail utterly to grapple with the matter of Shakespeare and the law. The experts don't say "he knows a bit about the law." They say he handles it with masterful expertise, as one who thoroughly studied and thinks in legal terms. The record of Hales v. Pettit is not written in English. It was a case from long before Shaxper was born. If you try the sources I provided, you'll find this and far more confirmed.

And this is just about Shakespeare's mastery of law.

This is the last go around for me on this, but I point out once again that it is not only Shakespeare's mastery of law that proves he was educated. It is also his mastery of medicine. And his mastery of sailing. And his mastery of falconry. And his obvious knowledge of travel and Italy.

The idea that a tiny pile of things he gets wrong somehow means more than the comparative mountain range of things he gets right is laughable. Adding Jonson doesn't do anything to make this idea more credible.

And how is claiming that others wrote WITH Shakespeare without credit not suggesting that alternative authors wrote some of the work? That's what it means to collaborate.

The idea of a "writer's room" might fit the way the plays were made. But who is more likely to have means to fund and create a writer's room -- a provincial actor or a noble patron of the arts?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 4:42pm | IP Logged | 3 post reply

Steven: there's nothing to have stopped Will from asking questions from friends, or friends of friends.

**

Really? How would that work?

"Hi, friend. I'm writing a grave digger's scene and need some obscure law to build metaphors on. Got any ideas?"
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 4:59pm | IP Logged | 4 post reply

Mark H: As far as I'm aware, there are six signatures generally accepted as being those of Shakespeare.

They are formatted as:

Willm Shakp
William Shaksper
Wm Shakspe
William Shakespere
William Shakspeare

When did he use "William Shaxper"?

And in the patent creating The King's Men, the name is written as William Shakespeare. The same spelling as would be used in the First Folio twenty years later.

And I believe, but may be wrong that "Shakespeare" was the spelling used by John Manningham when he recorded the anecdote about William The Conqueror coming before Richard III.

With regards to mastery, Shakespeare thought that:

Lord Woodville, Earl Rivers and Lord Scales, were three people, rather than one man with three titles. 
Edmund Mortimer, 5th Earl of March and one-time heir to the throne, and Edmund Mortimer, who rebelled against Henry IV, were one and the same.
Delphi was an island, rather than a city;
King John could use cannons decades before their invention;
Ancient Rome had chiming clocks;
Ancient Egyptians played billiards;
Richard of Gloucester could quote Machiavelli years before he was born;
Ulysses could quote Aristotle thousands of years before he was born.

And there's more. However minor you may consider these errors to be, they accrete to the portrait of a man who would write wonderfully about things while not always fully understanding what he was writing about.

And Jonson cannot be dismissed. If he is, you're basically ceding the argument and refusing to accept facts rather than providing a cogent case.

And you've - deliberately? - misunderstood the point about collaboration. If Shakespeare had several collaborators over a career spanning years, or decades, did none of them realise that the Warwickshire boy was a front for another author?

William Shakespeare was named, with that precise spelling - although spelling was fluid in those days, so I suppose it's a moot point - in the patent creating The King's Men. He is named alongside Richard Burbage, John Heminges and Richard Condell. All three were also named in Shakespeare's will. The latter two spent years collecting plays to commemorate the memory of the man they had known. The First Folio was published lauding the memory of Mr  William Shakespeare. The commendatory poem from Ben Jonson makes some jibes at Shakespeare's educational shortcomings, but also sings the praises of the Swan of Avon. William Shakespeare was born, mostly lived, and died in Stratford-Upon-Avon.

Q.E.D.





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Steven Brake
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 5:04pm | IP Logged | 5 post reply

@Mark: Really? How would that work?

"Hi, friend. I'm writing a grave digger's scene and need some obscure law to build metaphors on. Got any ideas?"
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------
Steven: "Build metaphors on?". It's two or three lines! They certainly seem to allude to Hales V Pettit, but they're hardly extensive, or an in-depth examination of the case.
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 5:17pm | IP Logged | 6 post reply

Nice dodge.

Question stands.
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 5:30pm | IP Logged | 7 post reply

No, question answered.

You still haven't responded regarding the formatting of Shakespeare's name. When did he use "Shaxper", which I've seen repeatedly used by posters in this thread?

Or the fundamental errors in his plays. Or the contemporary testimony of his peers.

But I'm afraid I'll have to call it a night for now! :)


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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 6:06pm | IP Logged | 8 post reply

Steven: Q.E.D.

***
Your timeline starts in 1603, when Shakespeare is listed as a junior investor in the King's Men -- "creating" something that already existed long before Shakespeare (The Lord Chamberlain's Company).

You say the Folio was created to memorialize the man, William Shakespeare when even orthodox Shakespeareans acknowledge “the prefatory material gathered to open the First Folio…..acts in a completely contrary way to anonymise the author of the plays.”

The First Folio was published, not to "laud the memory of Mr William Shakespeare" but to protect the legacy of the works.

The introductory matter, supervised by Ben Jonson (who also wrote its main epistles), never explicitly identifies the Warwickshire man; instead, it contains one reference to the dramatist as “sweet Swan of Avon” and a separate mention of “thy Stratford moniment,” leaving it to people in the future to conclude that Shakspere of Stratford-upon-Avon was the great author. No one is dismissing Jonson, merely counting him among those who would be aware that the true author wished to be anonymous and so employed (with barbs) a convenient fiction that Shaksper/Shaxper/Shakespear/etc was to be the face of the work.

William Shakespeare was born, mostly lived, and died in Stratford-Upon-Avon -- where Sir William Davenant warns people in "In Remembrance of Master William Shakespeare" not to

“…tread /The banks of Avon” for:

“The piteous river wept itself away

Long since, alas to such swift decay

That, reach the map and look

If you a river there can spy,

And for a river your mocked eye

                       Will find a shallow brook”   

Edited by Mark Haslett on 27 January 2021 at 6:28pm
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Michael Penn
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 6:21pm | IP Logged | 9 post reply

Mark is correct -- the metaphor drawn from the Hales case is extended; indeed, if one reads the case and then turns to Shakespeare, the usage is intense, and some of the borrowings literal. If a supposed lawyer-friend helped write this, it couldn't have been during a brief, casual conversation with the author. 

As I mentioned above, the case was first reported in the language of Law French of the English courts in Les Commentaries, ou, Les Reportes … de Divers Cases … en les Temps des Raignes le Roy Ed. le size, le Roigne Mary, le Roy & Roigne Philip & Mary, & le Roigne Elizabeth in 1571, some three decades before the play "Hamlet" appears (in the so-called Bad Quarto). There was no available English translation until 1761.

And that does raise the question of how.

Impossible that Stratford Will was told in detail, through a person or persons capable of translating, about the case such that he could employ it to dramatic usage? No.

Probable? Well, at the very least problematic... no?
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Mark Haslett
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Posted: 27 January 2021 at 6:22pm | IP Logged | 10 post reply

Steven: When did he use "Shaxper", which I've seen repeatedly used by posters in this thread?

**

The following are the various spellings from records in and around Stratford previous to the formation of the Lord Chamberlain’s Men in 1594: Sakspere - 1x, Shakspere - 14x, Shakespere - 3, Shakespeer - 1, Shakspeare - 3, Shakesper- 1, Shakyspere- 1, Shakspeyr- 3, Shakspayr- 1, Shackspyer- 1, Shaxpyere- 1, Shakysper- 1), Shaxpere - 3, Shaxpeare- 1, Shacksper- 1, Shackspeare- 1, Shackespere- 1, Sackspere- 1, Shakspear- 1, Shagspere- 1.

The following are from Stratford after 1594: Shaxper- 1x, Shaxpere- 1x, Shakspere- 1, Shakespere- 1, Shackespere- 1.
(from Sam Schoenbaum’s book, "A Documentary Life")

The people writing it seem to hover around a particular pronunciation -- writing what they hear -- Shack-Spur/Shax-per which, oddly, shifts within the man's lifetime to Shake-spear (or, phonetically for the day, more like SHIKE-Speah).

So "Shaxper" is representing the name the Stratford man was born to.

Here are the signatures which, I can agree with you, do not read "Shaxper" - but neither do they read "Shakespeare".



I see them (as interpreted on the page where I got this image) as:
a) From the 1612 Mountjoy suit deposition: Willm Shackper
b) From the 1612 Blackfriars Gatehouse deed: (William) Shakspear
c) From the 1612 Blackfriars mortgage: Wm Shakspea
d) From the 1615 will, page 1: William Shackspere
e) From the will, page 2: Wllm. Shakspere
f) From the will, page 3: (by me William) Shakspear

Edited by Mark Haslett on 27 January 2021 at 7:37pm
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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 2:02am | IP Logged | 11 post reply

Mark H: Your timeline starts in 1603.
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------
Steven: You seem to feel you've made some kind of point here, but I'm not sure what it is? And, as you yourself have noted, Shakespeare's membership of a theatrical troupe can easily be extended backwards, to his earlier partnership with The Lord Chamberlain's Men, and Lord Strange's Men. 
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ ----
Mark H: You say the Folio was created to memorialize the man...The First Folio was published, not to "laud the memory of Mr William Shakespeare" but to protect the legacy of the works
------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------
Steven: Heminges and Condell (and perhaps Burbage was involved, although he died in 1619 before the First Folio was published) collected as many plays possible to commemorate the man they knew. In their own words, they collected the plays into the folio "onely to keepe the memory of so worthy a Friend, & Fellow alive, as was our S H A K E S P E A R E". 
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------
Mark H: The introductory matter, supervised by Ben Jonson (who also wrote its main epistles), never explicitly identifies the Warwickshire man; 
------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------
Steven: The front page of the Folio is headed "Mr William Shakespeares Comedies Histories and Tragedies".

Jonson's introductory poem refers to "Shakspeare", who is, or was, the Swan of Avon.

Mr William Shakespeare of Straford Upon Avon left a will in which he left small bequests to Burbage, Heminges and Condell.

If you want to make the case that Will of Stratford was feigning authorship, that's up to you. But it's ridiculous to claim that he wasn't being identified as the author.

And I'm afraid you've lost me with regards to Davenant's poem? What point are you making?
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ -
With regards to the signatures, what you've proven is the fluidity of spelling of the period. You haven't, as you've conceded, shown any evidence of Will of Stratford using the spelling "Shaxper", with the disingenuous suggestion that it somehow got muddled with the supposed pseudonym "Shakespeare". 

And you've sidestepped that it was "William Shakespeare" - spelled that way - that was used on the royal patent.


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Steven Brake
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Posted: 28 January 2021 at 2:09am | IP Logged | 12 post reply

@Michael P: The gravediggers speech, in which they discuss suicide and Christian burial, runs from Act V, scene 1, lines 1-21.

Again, I don't deny it indicates a good, even strong, legal knowledge, but I think it's misleading to describe it as "extended". I'd use that term when describing the lengthy discourse over Salic Law in Henry V, Act I, scene 2,

It certainly feels like an allusion to Hales vs Pettit, but the notes in my Oxford edition (! :)) describe the case as "celebrated", while the Arden describes it as "famous". Is it possible that it had entered the lexicon as a metaphor for absurd legal judgements, much as, say, Jarndyce vs Jarndyce would become a metaphor for endless legal arguments in Bleak House?




Edited by Steven Brake on 28 January 2021 at 2:25am
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