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Ron Chevrier Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1641
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 3:53am | IP Logged | 1
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This is complete speculation on my part. I just finished reading the B&W House of Mystery collection. In a reprint of issue 194 is a Jack Kirby story (itself reprinted from # 84) titled The Negative Man.
The tale concerns a scientist who gets caught in an
accident involving the transmission of electricity by radio waves. This
causes a radio/electric creature to split off from him, leaving him
severely drained. As the creature wreaks havoc on the town, it displays
some familiar abilities and weaknesses. It has an aversion to lead and
water, and an affinity and ability to travel upon conductors of radio
waves and electricity. It also generates blasts of energy that can melt
or explode objects, and it could levitate a ship, presumably through
electro-magnetic force. The creature is defeated by the scientist who
manages to reabsorb it into himself!
Obviously the similarities are evident, even if the
respective Negative Men differ visually. I submit the possibility
that when time came to create the Doom Patrol, someone remembered
this little tale, and did a tweak on the concept, resulting in the
Fabulous Freak that we know and love. Considering the fact that both House of Mystery and My Greatest Adventure
were helmed by the same editor (Jack Schiff, and later, Murray
Boltinoff), I think that this was possibly the case, though I can prove
nothing. But how appropriate to consider that Jack Kirby may have
indirectly contributed to the creation of the Doom Patrol!
Edited by Ron Chevrier on 25 March 2006 at 3:56am
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Joe Zhang Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 12857
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 8:14am | IP Logged | 2
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In a recent interview Arnold Drake said he now buys into the
speculation that Stan Lee ripped off the Doom Patrol for the X-Men.
Drake says there was plenty of inter-company leaking back then, and it
there would have been time for Lee to publish the plagiarized ideas
before the Patrol first came out.
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Darren Taylor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 22 April 2004 Location: Scotland Posts: 6025
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 8:19am | IP Logged | 3
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Doom Patrol always struck me as the -most- 'Marvel' characters in DC's library!
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134071
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 8:45am | IP Logged | 4
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In a recent interview Arnold Drake said he now buys into the speculation that Stan Lee ripped off the Doom Patrol for the X-Men. Drake says there was plenty of inter-company leaking back then, and it there would have been time for Lee to publish the plagiarized ideas before the Patrol first came out. **** The first Doom Patrol story appeared in MY GREATEST ADVENTURE more than half a year before X-MEN 1 came out. Stan did not "publish" before Drake, and it's highly unlikely he plaigarised. (I do find it interesting, tho, that whenever the notion of something at Marvel being stolen from DC, it is Stan who gets the blame -- usually by the same people who will, in the next breath, claim that Kirby did it all and Stan was just a coattail rider.) I have a tremendous amount of respect for Drake, but, not unlike Stan, his memories of those long-ago times seem less than reliable.
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 8:48am | IP Logged | 5
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I saw that interview with Drake. He did a song at the San Diego con when he got the Bill Finger award about Stan Lee taking more credit than he deserves.
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Rob Hewitt Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 11 May 2004 Location: United States Posts: 10182
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 8:50am | IP Logged | 6
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NRAMA: Speaking of Finger, you won the first Bill Finger Award this year, and when you received the award at this year’s San Diego Comicon, you sang a song acapella that really ripped into a number of injustices in the comic industry most specifically, Stan Lee taking credit for things he didn’t do. What made you want to do that song?
AD: I thought it was a good thing to do and I was writing kind of an anthem for the San Diego show. I thought it was probably better than just making a speech of acceptance. I also wanted to do the Stan Lee joke at some point. Over the years I’ve became more and more convinced that he knowingly stole The X-Men from The Doom Patrol. I didn’t believe so in the beginning because the lead time was so short [Doom Patrol’s first appearance was in June 1963, X-Men number one came out three months later].
Over the years I learned that an awful lot of writers and artists were working surreptitiously between the two offices [Marvel and DC]. Therefore from when I first brought the idea into the [DC editor] Murray Boltinoff’s office, it would’ve been easy for someone to walk over and hear that this guy Drake is working on a story about a bunch of reluctant superheroes who are led by a man in a wheelchair. So over the years I began to feel that Stan had more lead time than I realized. He may well have had four, five or even six months.
NRAMA: Have you ever dealt much with Stan?
AD: Yeah I worked at Marvel for a while and even wrote some issues of X-Men in 1967.
NRAMA: Even though you were working for him did you ever question him about the Doom Patrol/X-Men connection?
AD: No. http://www.newsarama.com/general/ArnoldDrake/DrakneInterview .htm
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16577
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 10:02am | IP Logged | 7
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As always, when the subject of who stole from whom comes up in regard to The X-Men and The Doom Patrol, I must point out the following:
First, as Darren notes, The Doom Patrol is very much a "Marvel"-like group. In the Silver-Age, DC didn't have any other title like it. Marvel did.
The Chief = Mr. Fantastic = The brainy leader
Robotman = The Thing = Tragic character trapped in an inhuman body. Both orange, even.
Negative Man = Human Torch = Youngest male with flying abilities.
Elasti-Girl = Invisible Girl = Female member.
Members of both groups were known to bicker with other members of their group. That's something no other DC character did up until that time.
I still think Arnold Drake was trying to emulate what Marvel was doing at the time.
Oh, and the prototype for The X-Men can be found in "Amazing Fantasy" #14: Mysterious mutant leader with mental powers, gathering up other mutants to one day reveal themselves to the world once mankind has become more enlightened. That leader could've easily been revealed to have been Professor Xavier, if Stan Lee had thought or chosen to do so. Regardless, the story clearly was a forerunner for the ideas used in "X-Men."
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Darren Ashmore Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 30 April 2004 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 970
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 10:13am | IP Logged | 8
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I agree with Matt on this, I've always though that Doom Patrol was DC's attempt to do a Marvel-like team where the members argue, act more realistically, etc. In the early issues the Fantastic Four were often called freaks, and if DP are compared to the other DC heroes of the time, who were played very straight and were always heroic in the classic sense, DP was a real deviation from the other book they were publishing. Beyond the leader in a wheelchair there are hardly any similarilities, far more exist between the Fantastic Four and Doom Patrol, than Doom Patrol and X-Men IMO
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Matt Hawes Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 16 April 2004 Location: United States Posts: 16577
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 10:45am | IP Logged | 9
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I wish someone would ask Arnold Drake about the Doom Patrol's similarities with the Fantastic Four, instead of always bringing up the X-Men comparison. As far as I know, no interviewer has ever asked Drake about the Fantastic Four comparison.
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John OConnor Byrne Robotics Member
Joined: 01 August 2004 Location: United States Posts: 1112
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 11:25am | IP Logged | 10
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JB wrote..."The first Doom Patrol story appeared in MY GREATEST ADVENTURE more than half a year before X-MEN 1 came out. Stan did not "publish" before Drake, and it's highly unlikely he plaigarised. "
for arguments sake, we'll assume that Stan *DID* rip him off <which I don't believe, but...>. OK, fine. But wasn't FF a reply to JLA? There are similairities in a lot of books. Comes with the nature of the business I'd wager...
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134071
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 12:19pm | IP Logged | 11
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The only similarity between FF and JLA was that they were both group books -- and even that was kinda slim, since the JLA was composed of existing characters, and the FF was all new.FF bears a stronger resemblance to THE CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN, which is not altogether surprising, given the Kirby Konnection. It should be noted, however, that Stan gave Jack a fully worked out plot for the first issue. As I recall, the only thing that did not make it to the published work was Sue being permanently invisible. So, is it time to remind everybody that I created Venom...?
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John Byrne
Grumpy Old Guy
Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 134071
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Posted: 25 March 2006 at 12:22pm | IP Logged | 12
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I wish someone would ask Arnold Drake about the Doom Patrol's similarities with the Fantastic Four, instead of always bringing up the X-Men comparison. As far as I know, no interviewer has ever asked Drake about the Fantastic Four comparison. *** It underlines the diminished mental capacities of some corners of fandom, that this "comparison" is so often lofted to prove one must have been copied from the other. "Hey! They're both led by guys in wheelchairs!" You have no idea how depressed I get when things like this slam home how shallow some of the readership is!
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